Loot, where is it?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Katu, Aug 19, 2020.

  1. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    Here is really what I'd like to see, ideally:

    Tiered loot
    • Common items - rusty weapons in tier 1-2 scenes, standard non-crafted versions in higher scenes, drop off humanoid mobs along with coin. Use, salvage, or sell.
    • "Named" items - Bandit Blade, Heavy Halberd Blade; one step up from common items, have salvagable components
    • "Common" Artifacts - Acara's, Bandit Armor, Cutlass of the Swashbucker; have powerful abilities plus drawbacks, unique and can be tiered, have salvagable components*
    • "Boss" Artifacts - Torc'Dawl's hammer; rare and powerful, little to no drawbacks, unique, have salvagable components (consider making these tiered)
    Artifacts MUST be salvagable, for more than essences
    • Move some part of the artifact to a component, which can be salvaged and used in other items, components can be tiered
      • Consider if some artifacts should have multiple components, each with different parts of its benefit, and if some should only be on the "complete" item itself
    • Example: A piece of Leather Bandit Chest, Uncommon could salvage some Bandit Leather Straps, Uncommon, which can then be used in place of Leather Straps for various armor (such as Bandit Augmented Leather Leggings)
    • Once all artifacts are part of this system, then we will start seeing better player crafted gear and fewer all-artifact builds
    Resources
    • Most of this comes between loot as we harvest, but we could move some of this to be actual loot; we started this with miners carrying ore, and trolls carrying gems, but need more depth
    Junk loot/quest
    • If we are going to keep the various deco items (plows, silverware, etc) that drop, make quests for NPCs to accept them. Maybe Filmore in Solace Bridge Outskirts lost his plow, Vinicius in Blood River Outskirts is looking for place settings that fits his wine, etc. XP and a small amount of gold is better than destroying it because it sucks for salvage and has no real value.
    Supply Bundles
    • Remove all of the junk from supply bundles; those items need to be in base inventory, or in destructable objects around the scene (as some already are)
    • Instead, put components that can be used to craft higher tier foods; Wyvern Meat, Obsidian Bear Meat, etc. Consider making these "jerky" type so they can be consumed as-is for mid-tier benefit for those who don't care to craft, but can be converted to regular meat.
    • Make artifacts and named items the primary resources in these bundles
    Basically, make progression for the game for all types of players; those who just want to progress without fuss can use items as they drop, those who want to craft (or support those who do) can break those down and make something better.
     
  2. Elrond

    Elrond Avatar

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    Not the best for crafters though.... Once you start replacing components from the crafting system with artifact components its Bye Bye making ingots or straps or handles..bye bye gathering wood or beetles or ore , bye bye existing gold sinks like buying fuels from npc worth hundreds of mil/month prolly .......it pretty much destroys crafting .... there are better way to fuse crafted gear and artifacts that dont require making gold sinks/ gathering /crafting chains obsolete ...
     
  3. Grumpy Krabnevir

    Grumpy Krabnevir Avatar

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    One idea I heard somewhere, (hmmmm where did I hear this?) would be for weapon and armor 'blanks' that could drop, that had a higher (randomized) durability or even randomized base stats that could then be used to craft masterworks and enchants , or could even be a component for using to craft a higher tiered representation of that gear. Gives some interest to the loot table, and also gives crafters a new bump of activity. Seems like a win win, and reasonably simple to implement.

    But here again I digress, i'm sure chris, who has been here all along, has had ample opportunity to understand the problem and most likely has seen ALL of our great ideas and is busy working on implementing the best ideas collectively.
     
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  4. Violet Ronso

    Violet Ronso Avatar

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    This. This is one of the things I remember was talked about (I actively participated in that conversation) before. Being able to salvage artifacts, to add their "powers" to normal crafted items, would be great for everyone involved. Artifacts, even the low tier ones, would be much more desirable, but not to replace crafter gear, to become part of the crafted gear, which means crafters would get their own impact in this process.

    This part already exists, but I agree that we could push that even more. Lets not forget that Reapers drop a decent amount of wood and most by-products of wood, and Siege engineers do too. Trolls (or at least Torc) drops ores as well, but if more mobs could drop resources that would be nice.
     
  5. Grumpy Krabnevir

    Grumpy Krabnevir Avatar

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    Actually, you are very close to some truth with that statement, and I think a lot of people have a misconception of what this game's original design intent was. Richard made if very clear from the beginning that he wanted an immersive world where your choices had consequences. That's why almost every buff, every artifact, lots of skills, and etc. all have negatives built in, that's why we had skill decay and experience loss upon death, that's why we have armor decay, that's why we originally had no means of fast travel, that's why we have meaningless loot rng and items. That's why the original design did not include maps other than the in game ones found as loot, which were begrudgingly added to even be at that extent.

    If you look at the game as it's original intent (not what they have reluctantly added at this point by our insistence) you can clearly see the design of making every choice consequential and a trade off. You can't just have something good and beneficial, you have to choose whether those benefits are worth the detriments that you must accept in order to realize that benefit. There is no free lunch, you don't get to just win some times, every choice of realizing something good, must have a cost involved.

    Where I personally think he went off the rails in not understanding the current game market is:

    1) People like immersion, but we got over the grind everything up from twigs to mansions with each painstakingly real step along the way back in the late 80's and early 90's. Today's market isn't so much interested in the immersive grind as they are systems that function efficiently, rapidly, and allows them to spend more time being entertained than grinding. Most of us are adults, time is precious. There can be a happy medium.

    2) A game design of such consequential choices down to such a micro level, severely limits the feeling of progression, as every time you take 1 step forward, it's really only a half step or a quarter step because of the consequences. A game built with such ideas could be fine, as long as it was more on a macro level and clearly defined. At this level, it's just stressful to the normal game player that just wants to sit down and experience an alternate world looking for adventure and fun. We don't want to feel like we are doing our taxes everytime we try to figure out how to advance in a game.



    The game by original design is punishing. The only question was would the masses enjoy it and play it. Judging by the actual numbers (gotta love facts), I'd say that experiment has been solved. The only hope for this game is that Chris understand a different direction and move quickly to morph this game into something that actually is fun and rewarding to play.

    And quickly as a last anectdote of evidence, last night I logged in and chatted with 2 guildmates, went and got my buffs, then just stood there in my town and did nothing because I couldn't think of a place the 3 of us could go to kill stuff that the loot gained warranted the expenses and more importantly, the armor durability hits that the 3 of us would incur, for 'perhaps' a cpl of artis that are already not selling on plenty of vendors , or perhaps a few supply bundles that would 90% yield nothing of significant value when opened. I mean really, other than some essences to replicate your own bad loot scene without the travel, what is there worth grinding for?

    My gear cost too much to waste it for nothing.

    Sad and Lonely

    Grumpy Krabnevir
     
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  6. Grimbone

    Grimbone Bug Hunter

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    Would love to see meticulous give us scrap for gold and silver on the node. Seems like a missed opportunity.
     
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  7. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    If you use all components salvaged from artifacts, maybe. But otherwise I don't get this. Every component needs these resources, and you need fuel for the final combination too. Plus as a crafted item you get things like patterns that can modify the result.
     
  8. Violet Ronso

    Violet Ronso Avatar

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    Heck you could simply ADD the artifact component to a normal recipe, meaning the normal resources are still being spent but there is an addition of that artifact component.
     
  9. Elrond

    Elrond Avatar

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    Its pretty simple... lets take straps for example i got these in my bag

    [​IMG]

    To make them i need it about 7000 cotton + 7000 wax ( roughly) thats about 28k gold i gotta pay to a farmer + 28k i gotta pay to an npc for the wax fuel..... along came the bandit straps .... bye bye gold payed to farmers ...bye bye gold payed to npc ( no more gold sinks)...what we end up with is an assembly system and not a crafting system.

    Its a basic example that can be applied to pretty much any crafted component you think needs replacing .

    I just dont think making things obsolete or replacing systems that work is a viable option...build upon what we have to get to the next level .


    Fusing artifacts with crafted gear is the next logical step to balance the two .... it can be done in may ways.... one would be artifacts can be salvaged into gems/runes ( whatever) that can be socketed into crafted gear ( add sockets to all crafted gear)..... crafting remains relevant artifacts remain relevant ..no need to make any of them obsolete.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2020
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  10. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    What's a bandit strap?
     
  11. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    Hypothetical component harvested from bandit gear for purposes of discussion. (Not a real thing.)

     
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  12. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    Got it. [​IMG] I thought that I had missed something new.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2020
  13. Lazlo

    Lazlo Avatar

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    Who has artifacts to salvage when it takes 10 million of them to unlock their final version?
     
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  14. Xiones

    Xiones Avatar

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    As I said before, Focus on crafting and player the market. Remove COTOs for major repairs, and remove artifact items, and focus just on crafted gear in game, and remove the RNG in crafting.
     
  15. Katu

    Katu Avatar

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    If we are afraid, that economy suddenly collapses, because level 1-100 suddenly starts to make some money, please remember that level 130's levels have been doing their best since 2016 and they still have not achieved this.
    Game should not be balanced around 1% players.
     
  16. Superbitsandbob

    Superbitsandbob Avatar

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    It's interesting that in 2 other games, Wurm Online and Project Gorgon, this issue doesn't seem to come up.

    Of course in Wurm everything is player made and it is a proper sandbox. Although crafting still takes time, it is a lot more accessible. There is a crafting screen that lists all of the things that can be made. You don't have recipes, it just tells you all of the materials that are needed to make the item. Even as someone who is not a big crafter I find it compelling although I guess it is because it is a proper open world survival sandbox MMO where you can go anywhere and build anywhere and anything you like.

    Project Gorgon has lots and lots of dropped loot in a Diablo style but many people also craft their own gear as at the top end it is some of the best stuff. There are vendors selling loads of crafted items from food to potions, weapons and armour. The clash between which loot should be better doesn't seem to be a problem. Again the crafting system is more straight forward to a point where I do some myself so maybe that is it. Maybe PG didn't attract those big real money investor crafters who play the game like a real life business and whose only goal is to build as big a POT as they can and corner the market.
     
  17. CICI

    CICI Avatar

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    Some people want to become wealthy and well known within a mmo =D (I don't craft) =D Role play the greedy trader!
     
  18. Katu

    Katu Avatar

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    I think you are missing the point so hard here. You claim here that its normal to do 1M a week and you just "Roleplay the greedy trader" to get wealthy. Yeah, 0 dollars involved, its just a dream.

    Its weird to see these few defenders of the loot situation. Traders and crafters should be happy that there could be more trading coming up, if everyone has a tad more money. Not everyone wants to buy their gear with dollars, nor begging for it and getting it for free.

    Sandbox game, but we need more sand. It's just a box otherwise. None likes to be trapped in a box.

    IF I had the product owner hat here, this is what I would do.
    1: Sit down the team 1 hour at morning.
    2: Brainstorm methods to give more loot, while still maintaining somekind of checks in place to not give 1M hour gold.
    3: continue day normally
    4: 1h brainstorm after lunch, Brainstorm again, but this time come up with a plan to implement it

    Next day:
    Two sit downs, this time brainstorm about random factors in crafting and how to make it less random. No architecture changes, no skill changes.

    Come up with a plan, schedule it and do it, when the time comes.

    I am not a game dev, I do not pretend to understand in how tought spot @Chris and the team is now. However, I am a software developer and we have had some really bad days and months, with serious issues. Its times like this, when we have to trust Jira and agile. If you do not plan it and schedule it, it will never ever be done.

    I play, I subscribe, I like the game, but man the loot sucks footballs.

    PS: As always, threads are being derailed for whatever reason. Stay strong avatars, someday we can maybe get gold to buy the new hat
     
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  19. Powersurge

    Powersurge Avatar

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    Several folks have touched on this and i will mention my opinion of it as well. You are complaining about a system that doesnt work like the the previous games you have played....you are missing the point. This isnt a kill a high level mob get a piece of gear game. The game is built around a "crafting" economy. The makers of this game made crafting so grindy and so costly that only hard core crafters can put up with the craziness that is the pain of taking these skills high enough to make something decent. Therefore it isnt about killing dragons...you should go to areas where you can farm resources CRAFTERS want. Unless you are a fire mage or so high level that you can solo tartarus or ruined keep(once again FIRE MAGE accomplishes this) then you are better off mining for silver or gold. You will make more money doing that. The only other solution is to grind ERG until you literally can kill all of ruined keep solo. The game is so EASY now. They even give you adventuring xp when you mine. It use to be MUCH WORSE. Stop thinking this is everquest or any other MMOS that you have played and start gathering resources crafters want. Once you do that, you will make decent money. Those 1 mil per week people are the 1% or make a fire mage and farm massive amounts of mobs for resources. It's not about the challenging kill. It is about killing massive amounts of weak opponents and gathering those resources to sell to crafters.
     
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  20. Violet Ronso

    Violet Ronso Avatar

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    You see, this is the exact problem I have with this game. I am not asking about giving me tiered loot with Epic gear so I can live off of my mob killing without ever needing anyone else, what I am asking for is a way to make my time invested into having fun more rewarding. This game punishes you at every corner, if I decide to fight something stronger, I am spending more on reagents, repairs, etc, all while getting pretty much the same loot as if I killed outskirt mobs, but if I fight outskirt mobs I one shot them. If I go in a mine, I am fighting pretty low level mobs, I mean that they pose no threat whatsoever to me, because It has been AT LEAST since launch that those mobs can't take me on. I am asking for mobs to drop some new materials that can be used by crafters, meaning Those who want to mine/chop/forage/skin for money can still do this all they want, meanwhile I could go and fight barbarians for savage essences, helping the crafters out by selling them these savage essences they need to garantee a Strength enchant/masterwork.

    By doing something like this, it can be very easy to balance loot too! Give 5 or 10% drop rate to these essences per tier of the mob, meaning if I am fighting in a T1 zone, I have 1/20 chance of getting a savage essence, but if I fight T10 barbarians, I get 50%, or 1/2 chances of getting the essence. This means that although the loot is similar, my drop rate is much higher, meaning I get rewarded for the extra effort. Add in Essences for every type of Enchant/MW (some can overlap, ex.: savage essence could be used for Strength and some weapon skills, only the recipe changes), and you have got reasons to fight in multiple areas, because I wont be getting any lich essence from Ulfheim, so If I want Death Gem specific enchant, I will need to go fight undeads in another zone!

    This could solve so many issues :
    1. Randomness in crafting
    2. Loot tables
    3. Reasons to visit different scenes
    4. Economy between the PvE/PvPer (Because I won't consider normal materials, since you technically have to gather from them, so I would consider ores/logs things that the gatherers bring to the table, they aren't really PvEing, considering how easy and sparse mobs are in mines.)

    So yeah, you might say that this is how Shroud of the Avatar was supposed to be, "working as intended" like many say, but to me, a game that only favorises the gatherers and screws everyone else lacks a deep understanding of fun, I am all for the importance of choice and having negatives to counter-act the positives, but my god put some decent positives in the areas that are lacking, but hey, considering how much negative they put in PvP without EVER considering some positive, I think you might be right, this will never be a game like that.
     
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