Loot, where is it?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Katu, Aug 19, 2020.

  1. Katu

    Katu Avatar

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    First of all, I have been here since the beginning, from kickstarter. I know what I am playing. Read the original post again and read it with a care. None is talking about getting gear upgrade FROM mobs, absolutely none is saying that. So focus your rage on somewhere else.
    Your opinion does not have the value you seek to have. I have conrete, real players here. 5 to be exact. They are absolutely wrecked about the loot. They are having good time, but loot sucks.
    We understand that this game is not like others, THATS WHY WE PLAY THIS GAME AND NOT THE OTHERS. ( I can caps too ).

    "This game is so EASY now". Allright, start a new character, get it to kill wyverns and reapers at Ulfheim, with zero handouts of items and money and with maybe subscribing cotos. Then remember that new player does not have a clue about your favorite ways to get money. The loot sucks.

    Where can I farm resources that crafter want? As a level 1-90?
    Its not a crafting game either. Your claims about this game, are hurtfull to the future of this game and are driving players away from it. It's not a crafting game, where new players are miners.
    Your idea about collecting crafter wanted items would work, IF LOOT DROPS WOULD HAVE ANY OF EM.

    So, new players should just mine? Mine, mine mine? Then what? Buy gear to advance to next mining place to mine more?
    You guys are missing a point also. Even elysium mines is plenty of silver, its not easy for new player. Ghosts are hard to kill and prevent mining in certain areas. Also, mining is boring, when compared to adventuring.

    To some players, it IS about the massive kills. To competitive players it absolutely is the main driving factor. Solo everything.

    I say again, I can handle myself okish, I make enought to survive. New player can't do it.


    Gear is so expensive, that I have bought one set, with material cost and repaired that same set ever since. Hows that good for economy?

    CRAFTING IS MEANINGLESS IF YOU CANNOT FIND NEW PLAYERS WITH MONEY TO BUY GEAR.
     
  2. Superbitsandbob

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    Just make a cool 1mil a week in loot drops and buy your upgrades. Most players are doing it apparently.
     
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  3. Katu

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    Anyone who has bought anything to this game for more that 100$ Are not allowed to this discussion :D
    Someone who has bought his way in to the wealth, cannot understand this situation anymore than a kid with super filthy rich parents.
    Normal player is not willing to put more than maybe 60-120€ I would guess. ( Figures are from full game prices little extra there ). Normal player, outside US, does not even have a credit card. I have had credit card for few years and I'm 37.
    Also, younger players don't like to pay to win, they try to do it otherway. Atleast me and my group feel that way.

    But alas, none hears us, none cares about it. This is not so big task, that it could not be fixed in months period.
    Keeping it as it is, forces weaklings to buy cotos, to turn em to gold, to buy the gear. Its not ok.
    EDIT: Game should suggest and encourage to buy COTOS, ofc, but not because you simply cannot do anything without it.
    And yes, I am aware that there might be handfull of players who have grinded without any money and are doing fine, thats not what normal players do however. They wanna have FUN. You should not have to pay for the loot.
     
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  4. Elrond

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    Do you have any suggestions on how to improve the loot ? ..other then 3 big wall of texts that say the same thing ? We all know loot needs to be improved we have known it for years .
     
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  5. Superbitsandbob

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    It's a common mindset and we have all been guilty of it before somewhere whether in another game or some other venture I'm sure. You invest in an ideal. The game then does or did encourage you to invest more into that ideal to move you and the game towards what you were originally promised. The investment becomes such that any deviation from that ideal puts you on the defensive at any suggested change and you fight against it tooth and nail like a cornered badger.

    You will also have the capitalist mindset. I've reached this stage in the game using my real money or time and if this change is implemented, it could mean my POT and my billions or my time and real money will be worth less. Maybe players will not need my services as much, which is fuelling my drive towards my ultimate goal, and that's not fair because I have invested this time and money.

    The sad psychology of it is that whatever state the game is in doesn't allow for compromise. I get the impression some players will continue to fight against anything that lessens their control on how loot is managed in the game or goes against the original ideal until the game dies. They would rather the game die than lose the control or the ideal they have invested so heavily in.

    It's no surprise that the players you find opposing idea's on the forums and Twitter are also the players you see advertising the most in game.
     
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  6. CICI

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    I'm all for Loot overhaul/vendor search/COTO UI buy/sell exchange etc. Will learn to adapt with any update/overhaul :)
     
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  7. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    Socketing already exists for chest pieces and weapons, it just isn't very discoverable. Extending this type of slot to all gear, and having artifacts salvagable that fills that slot is fine, I don't care *where* the salvaged piece is added. Just show it on the gear detail when they have empty slots. That does have the side effect of purely increasing the power of crafted items, instead of balancing them, since there is no tradeoff of components. Not my intention, but it can be worked around.

    This is because both ends of the crafting system are broken. Its so expensive to craft an item due to RNG that getting the initial set can be problematic, unless you simply don't care about stats and just grab whatever someone churns out. And repair is broken so gear can be used endlessly with no need to replace it (and no hard PVP loot, so its not going to get taken). Unless you are trying to dominate rankings, really want a specific set of items, and are willing to invest millions of gold into the process, you can do just fine with mid gear FOREVER. And now, you can just use that until you can replace them with artifacts that are best in slot, and never deal with crafting again. Yay?
     
  8. Spinok

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    I was very comfortable grinding RISE on 120 fire + air without Vexlyns, if your gear cost 1mil pretty sure you have vexlyns, you avatar now is even stronger then avatar I grinded Rise.
    Rise would give you more than 15k per hour. Since the respawn of almost all in Rise is 10 minutes, I recommend you to put a target - make 2 Elf rooms (light one), elf mage room and elf archer room in 10 minutes. After you would solve it begin to think about how to make all this + undead room, after it add troll and slime. Finally, this circle will give you good IGG rate per hour(and you will almost hit the XP cap if farm 1-hour non stop), and don't forget you can salvage BS things on the station inside the RISE.
    Another way for you - go to Ruined keep, and kill all Trolls, you will be able to hit up to 40-50 essences per hour and a chance to get a totem, only this in present prices will give you 40k per hour in essences add to this chance of totem and chance to get Vrul on the mushroom.
    P.S. I agree that we should get better loot (and be major focused on regs for crafting as a loot), but the overall system is working as intended, as you play the game where igg=$ you should be prepared that sometimes loot is very bad, and constantly thinking about the ways how and where get better loot.
    P.S.S. We will always have a problem that casual players never would compete with hardcore one in solo farm activities. Its the reality, but we could add smth that will solve the issue - Myrkur is the step in right direction, just increase the obsidian output of zombies in Myrkur(ten times) and add some kind of essence to them and some arties in the loot. So group of casual players likely would have far better output when you fight in the group than solo farming. Generally, it is the only thing that can balance it.
    P.S.S.S As for a group of hardcore players in Myrkur... Igg per hour rate of the hardcore player is pretty big, even new Myrkur would not give them 8xtheir igg per hour rate as a drop as a solo player. And as a solo player there is no way to farm Myrkur I think even on normal mode)
     
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  9. Superbitsandbob

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    Many times I have seen you post asking for crafting changes and fixes in tweets that Chris makes that are completely unrelated to crafting and so the comment about derailing feels very much pot and kettle.

    You have been here long enough to know ideas have been discussed in the past, you maybe just didn't like them.

    So honest question and hoping for a honest answer.

    Chris makes a post tomorrow stating that he had done some market research and it turns out the vast majority of players don't want to run around your POT buying your stuff and some would return and subscribe if they could get tangible upgrades from mobs and bosses. He says that he is going to implement tiered loot drops along AL level ranges for all combat trees that would be upgrades for players while they were out adventuring. Not quite as good as what you could make, but good enough so that they would not need to buy your stuff if they did not want to. What would your reaction be?

    Would you be ok with that? Not happy but accepting if it is for the good of the game? Strongly opposed to the point where you and others threaten to pull out of the game and cause other issues? If so is it because you would fall into one of the 2 categories I mentioned or another reason? Genuinely interested.
     
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  10. Superbitsandbob

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    Who's lashing out? I think I've used Reddit once and really you are using that as a strawman, as is often the case, because someone is calling you out. I asked a genuine question and you avoided it. I am not talking about artifacts but all loot across all areas. There are a few good artifacts yes but if it was as you suggest no one would buy any other equipment and you wouldn't make it.

    I did answer your question. I proposed a theoretical change which you sidestepped with artifacts blah. I'll ask it again. Chris wants to implement the system I pointed out across all loot which may mean that your crafted items become less desirable, maybe much less so. I was genuinely interested in your stance but it is clear what that is from the way you answered the question.

    This is exactly why the game is where it is. Players who genuinely want the game to succeed and see its potential get called Reddit trolls.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2020
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  11. Superbitsandbob

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    It's a shame you feel that way but I guess it is easier than accepting the fact that you really don't want things to change because of the impact it may have on you while I or someone else may actually care about the game and its health. You wouldn't answer the question and that speaks volumes.

    As I said I don't use Reddit but if it is an easy out for you so you don't have to answer the question honestly then that's fine. We'll plod on as we are. It speaks volumes for the state of the game when players like yourself, who are sucking the life out of it slowly, can hide behind Reddit lol. I wonder how many other players who wanted the game to succeed and be healthy went elsewhere because players like you can't accept change and so hide behind the assumption that everyone is a troll.
     
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  12. Violet Ronso

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    Whew, yeah, on topic, good job both of you! How bout you bring this to a private conversation and let those of us who actually want to provide ideas and feedback on the thread not get, wait, I'll quote someone on this one :

    This thread is about actual loot, not artifacts, not gear, but actual loot that could provide some better economical value to the game, that could actual benefit everyone. I think I haven't seen more than 3 actual suggestions in 5 pages, and I was one of those 3, and I don't even play the game anymore... Crazy how both sides in this debate are doing exactly the same thing.

    @Elrond you keep calling out those who do not actually participate in the conversation, without actually participating yourself, how about you give your opinion ON TOPIC of these ideas I saw :

    1. Salvaging artifacts to generate components. These components would not replace the current component, but actually be an addition to the pre-existing recipes (ex.: You still need Cloth Straps and combine those with Bandit Straps to make Bandit Crafted Gear, heck it could even be a bandit essence that you can apply to OTHER materials).

    2. Drops from mobs that allow to generate a garanteed enchant. You can still do enchants/masterworks the old way and work with RNG + Mastery if you want to train your skills, but if you want to fill a custom order you can add these drops to your enchanting recipe to garantee the choice you wanted.

    3. Crafters quests asking for multiple copies of an item, ex.: 10 bronze longsword +10. These would give you back (some) ressources along with a high tier component (T3 or T4), or a chance at crafting specific artifact, recipes and what not. These 10 longswords would then be added to the drop pool. This would allow crafters to empty their endless supplies of unsellable gear that could be decent but no one would actually buy at a price to compensate for resources.

    3 different ideas from this thread, the only one I saw you answer was the 1st one before others added ideas to it, you simply said no.
     
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  13. Elrond

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    My 2 cents

    Short version

    You cant improve the loot ingame by adding stuff thats already there...i saw people suggesting more raw materials (ore so on ) to be dropped... once that gets borring theyll probably move to fishies... then maybe more mandrake and cotton ... thats not gonna fix the problem just ruin current systems.

    Loot needs to be fixed i agree....but it needs systems to be implemented ... unique...complex...and original ...we want players to come back ? we want players to stick around ? thats how we bring them back and make them stick around with unique new loot ...not with the same stuff they are already bored of ....one example of good loot added recently would be the xp book...its unique ... requires a system ..thats the stuff we need....

    Long version

    1.I know its my idea but its not very original and what i think chris wont like about it ..once it gets tied to gear it will degrade the rate gear does..which means players will farm them faster then they go out of the economy...demand for arties may drop...with time unles ways are found to absorb them.

    2 . i dont mind having something like that ....

    3. Yes ...been asking for something like that for a long time just dont make it about materials....anyone donating should have a chance at getting special components the higher the item donated ( +20) the better the chance .... this could also be a great way of adding those +20 items donated to loot table..the problem with this however will create a circle that never ends... donate loot donate same thing again....so maybe limit donations per item to only 2 times.

    PS - Sorry about the earlier rant just tired of people painting this game badly ...the problem we need to overcome is the image we have...we cant afford to offer trolls a platform to launch their attacks anymore ... let them stay on reddit .
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2020
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  14. Sulaene Moon

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    This is what I am looking for. I don't have suggestions, because I'm not a developer nor do I know what would make it better, but that doesn't mean I'm a troll because I want better loot without offering a suggestion.

    Perhaps I do have an idea, perhaps loot drops that are somewhat decent deco or patterns that are similar to what is in the cash shop. I know it might be a bad idea for $$ reasons, but I would love if I had a chance to get a rare painting, lamp, or cool chair that can't be crafted. I know it's probably a bad idea, but it's all I got. In the end I would play more and bring friends, but when the loot is bad it really shows bad as a game.

    My two cents, but please just because people don't offer ideas on how to fix it doesn't make them trolls. We all don't know everything!
     
  15. Cora Cuz'avich

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    I'd be happy if current loot got a bump up across the board-more gold, more regs, better weapons. Especially "regular" weapons like long swords and daggers- stuff that doesn't have patterns and so you're going to get scrap from them instead of a pile of patterns. Except for longbows, these don't really drop anywhere. (A few spots, but not many.) Even better; it needs to scale with mob difficulty. That's a huge negative to how things currently are; it's not fun killing something that takes longer than a minute and getting the same stuff you get killing something you get kill in 5 seconds.

    But bigger-picture, we need new loot. Increasing the amounts we get is a start, but getting more of the same is only good to a point. We need stuff to hunt for, and not stuff that drops rarely. And this stuff should be spread across different scenes and regions.

    And and, finish the system for scaling loot in scaling scenes. I enjoy harvesting resources in Lamech's but I never venture out of Easy unless I want XP, because t12 and t15 mobs drops the same stuff as t7 mobs in Easy. SpindleSkog is the same; the better xp in harder versions is great, but I walk out of that place with nothing but a little extra gold and corpse wax.
     
  16. Katu

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    Sure, I am not a game designer, but yes.
    However, I don't think its about ideas, those have been thrown around.

    But hey, from top of my head.

    Loot stuff:
    Just boost loot 5x 10x and see where it goes. If afraid about getting out of control, implement proper loot attenuation that caps it.
    Loot from T1 mob cannot be same as from t10 mobs. IT has to be scaled. Minimum with "Current Loot x tier level"
    Mobs should drop more items like torc slicer ( More synergy for loot and crafters)
    It's not hard to figure out what should be dropped. Drops are fine, they are just super rare.

    Change supply boxes to contain something that is actually valuable. Flat money even.
    Increase pure money drop.

    Other:
    Crafting random needs to be more reliable.
    Reagents, arrows and etc. We have and need money sinks, but these hit new player hardest.


    I think the devs can figure out what needs to be done. No player info needed there. We need a raise.

    PS: Walls of texts, to counter some bit weird views on this thread.
    PSS: But hey, Sad thing is, we will have this same chat next year.
     
  17. Katu

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    Yeah, I can generate some money now. But I have high level character and I have played on off since the early releases.
    But this is more from the new player view, that I have gathered fresh from my friends who are trying this game. Good thing is, they are still trying and somewhat enjoying this game. Loot is the biggest issue they have come up with. It's not only my opinion. Its collection of 5 new players.
     
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  18. oplek

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    My view on what would be good loot. Aside from providing an XLS of a full inventory of items, it's more about the attributes/context.

    Unflatten the curve

    Equipment
    There was a lot of effort to make skills equipment "flat" so that new players can catch up and compete. That means that a AL-100-appropriate bow is maybe a few-fold more powerful than the AL-1 bow that you find in the starting scene. The damage spread should be more like:

    AL-1 Bow: 1-10 damage
    AL-100 Bow: 1000-5000 damage
    AL-120 Bow: 50000+ damage

    They should also have stat requirements, such as strength and dexterity. Yes, maybe you have that badass bow, but do you have the 200+ str to wield it? Did you invest in that?

    Money
    Similarly, the gains and costs should be exponential.
    AL-1 Monster: 1-10g each
    AL-100 Monster: 1000-5000g each
    AL-120 Monster: 20000-50000g each
    ... but the AL-120 monster also has a million HP.

    Likewise, the costs should increase accordingly.... repair kits for higher level equipment may costs 100kg each.
    It's always mystified me why all skills costs 100g to unlock. The fire elemental, besides the quest, should cost more like 10M-50M gold.

    Why? Mostly psychological. It's very deflating to be using that high-end bow that barely does any more damage than the starting bow. That's awful. One of the more painful experiences in the game is spending a metric ton of time into getting new skills and equipment, only to have your damage output increase by 0.02%.

    If you increase your sword skill from 100-105, your damage output should be doubling or tripling... not going from 20 damage to 21. That's needed to feel like you're making progress.

    Make things interesting
    Equipment dropped should be full stats.
    • +Attributes
    • +Specials
    • High damage or defense
    • Unique appearances and effects. We have some of this.. like the moss club thing... but we need more of this.
    • More set bonuses
    An example bow drop might be:
    • 100-200 dam
    • 5% chance to cast meteor shower
    • +20 int
    • +5 cold resist
    • +20 attack speed
    That would be a medium/mildly-interesting item.

    Auto-sort/filter and auto-sell junk abilities
    In the name of all that is holy and just.
    ("what is good loot" is a broad question)

    Quest Items
    More things that can initiate or are part of large, interesting quests.
    • Mine maps (like treasure maps, but to non-farmable mines, I guess)
    • Interesting scripted boss battles
    • Story/lore quests
    • Temporary items, like turn-into-troll potions. Maybe tie it into some kind of asymmetric PVP quest where you raid towns as the troll/dragon and they beat you up. If you do well at entertaining people, you get a COTO reward.
    Put the recipes into quests or stores and out of the loot tables
    Enough of the bundle drops.

    Unique Items
    • Quantity-limited special beefy items. If you die, you drop it, and someone can loot it. Maybe often associated with PVP. Only so many people can have them.
    • No-rent beefy items. The moment you log off, you lose them. Or they're quick-decay. An example may be a ring of immune-cold that you get from a quest, but it only lasts an hour.
    ----------

    Will the above destroy crafting? Yes
    Will it destroy and imbalance PVP (at least for awhile until it's sorted out)? Probably

    But that wasn't the question. The question was, what would make for good loot?
     
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  19. oplek

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    Also hard caps. Hard caps now.
     
  20. oplek

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    The bit about the psychology.... that's the real sticking point. The devs need to brush up on the psychology of fun. It really takes the wind out of your sails when you spent the last week leveling up, and your skill output went from 20.3 to 20.4.