My displeasure about combat's related features in this game.

I assure you I meant no offense....I am merely responding to what I get from what you post. It's good to remember that we all see things through the filters of our own experiences.

Now back to "topic" as you say. I used to really really dislike the combat system....but.. it's growing on me. I've been watching a lot of really skilled players and it made me think that maybe what was missing was me. In other words.. I don't suck because the combat system is inherently borked...if I suck it's because I haven't mastered the mechanics. I'm kind of starting over in that regard...I'm trying to retrain how I use skills.. and to use them more intelligently.
I fully realize that I may never be a contender for top honors in pvp if for no other reason than the little fact that my reflexes aren't as fast as someone 30 or 40 years younger than myself.
I'm not that concerned with PvP currently anyway... i don't think it's going to be much more than jousting until we get a proper reputation system implemented.

<insert due to @Magnus Zarwaddim making a great post> While I want this game to succeed.. I don't want to see it at the expense of it becoming just another variant/clone of most of what's out there.
There are some people who have figured out the mechanics faster than myself.. but I'm really at the point where I think I'm the weakest link in my chain. It's ok... I'm only lvl 97.. so plenty of time to learn and, that's exactly what I'm doing right now. I mostly have my skills locked while I study out how they interface with each other. Oh also.. lol I'm trying to really understand the mechanics of the deck system. again.. I think it's been more my "not getting it" than the system.


Now if we wanted to talk clunky.. I'd again point to what @blaquerogue mentioned. I'm far more concerned with some of the.. less than optimal Mob AI and the lack of real mob diversity (along with too many cloned scenes) than I am with the concerns mentioned here about combat.

Artifacts: My biggest complaint about arti's was the distribution. While my memory tells me I ead they were gonna be found in zones tiered 3+ it's no secret that the bulk of them drop in higher tiered zones. While on the one hand there is some logic to that (I think) on the other hand I think it added to the imbalanced state of the economy.. particularly considering that the loot for lower levels.. like sub 90 just sucked and still isn't what it should be @Chris .. that's me giving you that look again ;p

My other concern with artifacts is how they affect crafting...idk. it's still a WIP.. I'm willing to wait it out.

I'm sorry...and maybe this is just me.. but I don't think that should have any bearing on the conversation. I mean.. considering the fact this isn't even a released game yet the $ figure (If I ever actually added it up) that I have into the project could be considered kinda goofy...

I don't think somebody with a Castle (I chose that arbitrarily... I have no idea what your lvl of $ investment is nor do I care) should have more "voice" than somebody like Mac or @Rada Torment for example with their $45 accounts.

those are both good examples of people who have "figured it out" in spite of being clunky.

Last item.

I think.. and again maybe it's just me.. that when you want to make a point it works out better if one doesn't come off as being arrogant or dismissive of anything that doesn't fit the confines of their reality.
The above quoted statement comes across like.. "excuse me.. adults are talking here". Now I'm inclined to give you a pass on it as iirc English may not be your mother tongue but it really comes off poorly.

I don't wanna derail this so I'll just sign off here

-sol

 

Great post Hornpipe, thank you for taking the time to write it up. Here are a few of MY thoughts on it.

To be honest, it's like this in most mmo's i think. It could be solved partially if we could alter the UI however we like. Skill bars on the side for skills that don't need stacking, skill bar in the middle with skills that can be made into combos, etc. LARGER skill icons under our names so we can actually see what is almost running out. etc. etc.

I've never been a fan of this you must learn all to be competitive thing. I play as a archer, no offensive magic skills whatsoever. The problem with the current system though is that there just aren't enough skills in one tree to specialize. Effectively forcing me to branch out. The dev's once stated that they wanted to have the most emotes of any game ever made. I think they should apply this logic on the number on player skills that are in this game. I'm not talking about only 20 or so per tree, no, i'm talking about at least 50 per tree and most of them would be active skills. Meaning the players have to place them in their decks. This will at least give some diversity in decks. Granted it will be a pain to balance.

Next, after you put a ton of skills in, change the way attunement works. It should not increase the power of skills, it should instead be used to unlock higher tier skills, combo's or perhaps even another skill tree. Instead, your skills will get more powerfull the more skills you unlock in a tree. Thus giving people more incentive to specialize. The insane decay one would get from gming all those skills will also deter some people from taking up too many skills. Granted, i'm sure that some people will stil try to do so and be moderately succesfull.

One more thing. If you are using opposite magic trees i think they should affect each other negatively. Let me give a example. Say you can get a max attunement of 100 in fire, then it would decrease to 75 if you use both fire and water. Of course this will not be the case if you make a skill combination (steam?)out those two skill tree's since it will draw power of both.

This has two faces, i like that fact that i can go out and find interesting stuff. On the other hand some of them are a bit too powerfull. I just wish we could use them as components for our crafting and keeping certain special properties that some of them have.


Hopefully this made a bit of sense, i find it hard to explain things and tend to just ramble on.

 

I could not agree more with this. By the way, I'm not asking for limits but for some balancing. I'm all for freedom. And that's the main reason of my post. As it is now, someone who want to be competitive, including with PvE, will probably have to train skills that should be completely out of the scope for those who intend to specialize. Attunement is a good exemple of the problem, but not the only one. To me, there are simple solutions that doesn't involve hard caps, imposed specialization or anything.

I take no offense. I'm not a very resentful person, but I try not to be naive in the meantime.

When I mention the money, that's not to get more importance than anyone else. That's the first time I do that I think, but I'm not the first in this thread. I think that either for @Speck or for me, it was a good way to explain why we are still there writing 3 feets long posts instead of playing or doing anything else. Why we have concerns about this game and why I don't want it to fail for dumb reasons.

I think, and maybe it's just me too, that you are not in my head again. Being arrogant and dismissive is the only way to allow this discussion to stay constructive and not being derailed about how and why Barugon said this and that and how and why I replied this and that. There is a lot of agressivity both ways. When people come to take all authority about those topic because, obviously, they know those things better than you or are wiser are you or because they are more generous, that's arrogance too. It's just that it's expressed in a different way. I'm here to talk about the substance. Anything else is social and there is no place for social in such discussion, in my opinion. So, if you take that as a "excuse me... adults are talking here", it's your right. There are good aspects to being a child, you know ?

In every system, you have a learning curve. That doesn't mean that the system is fun for everyone, or good. My first post in this thread points out what could be an issue if we want to attract more players. And obviously, we need more players. Here, I don't think there is a single person who want a theme park MMO. But who will want to take time to learn how to play the game if he or she can't play the archetype he or she want to play ? How do you advertise this ? You want to be a mighty warrior ? Ok, but don't forget to train your sympathy of stone skill...

You forgot to mention the way targeting and attacks works now. It's a good part of the problem.

That could be the beginning of a good idea here. Maybe developpers should give us more freedom with no separate trees, and a way for us to chose our skills in a list without any prerequisites. Maybe they should completely abandon attunement ? I don't know.

For me, one thing is sure. Something must be done, and time is running out.

 

im just gonna be honest here, i like the fact that i can train all skills, its how i like to play the game. it allows me to be fluid and versatile in the way i play and affords me the ability to tackle most content in the game .

it is my worry that all this hard work and time i put into training my skills and perfecting my Combat decks etc will be wasted if a change is made limiting how many skills i can learn. imo thats what will kill the game over anything else.

i fully understand that i am but one person and not necessarily everyone will agree with me and my opinions.

at the end of it all i just want to be able to play the way i like to play without worrying about my ability to train all skills being shot dead.

i dont profess to know everything about this game but with 7k hours i have thoroughly tested the combat system and would like to think that my Input on it would be valuable and count for something.

 

True. I used L120 as my total XP but because of decay and untraining, its actually less. Many of my trees have a good amount of levels depending on the threat. For example, death attunement is 93, fire attunement 91, water attunement 90, earth attunement 95, air attunement 90 because these are threats to me. Moon, sun, life are not threats so they're lower.

I did not like leveling these for defense. I thought that was stupid and I'm not a fan of the design of attunement affecting defense and wish defense to a school had its own skill. That said, it doesn't really matter or affect my specialization - it compliments my build - because I never use magic. I stab.

I fight almost everyone and depending on how I build out my deck, I can kill most everyone most of the time. When I do lose, I know I can tweak my deck against that person and be more effective because the deck system allows for a TON of options. Not using magic or healing doesn't mean I can't kill them before they kill me... my entire build is based on that and I do quite well (I still use Hamstring btw).

As for heavy armor compensating my specialization, it's part of my specialization. I fight things with a sword in plate so that's my build. Armors are parts of people's builds and not separate (i.e. I doubt there is a heavy armor specialist in the game that uses body slam but no weapon).

 

Thing is all of us who are 110+ in adventure level will have to give up power. Else this game is DOA which it basically is already on the german market due to bad press
They will fix it anyhow so raging about it is useless. Skill rebalance will happen and it will be in the face of everyone that has levelled skills 120+ like me and others
Right now I only see high levels like me pretty defensive on giving up power.

The skill system has fundamental flaws at the moment, obvious to anyone who ever played a MMORPG. Chris knows about them and he already announced that things will change. Rather debate on a compromise than trying to argue that 140+ in one skill is specialization, while having all the other magic trees on GM You know they are right, so please stop

 

Thank you for this feedback.

Indeed, the "kill them before you get killed" is essential for your build as long as you don't use magic and... therefore can't heal yourself. With melee, you can interrupt and knockdown your target easily. With heavy armor, you get a better damage resistance against spells (I know people don't think it's worth something but I can tell you it changes your survavibility), and you probably use shield to block those too. Try this with an archer who don't have any knockdown and use a light armor, especially with the high damage avoidance we have to deal with. I'm sure that you understand what I mean.

Personaly, I don't want experienced players to be shot to death. Sure, I have personal arguments with some of them but every game need incentives, and if experienced players don't get a balanced advantage, the game will lose its incentives. All of this is not intended to make everyone equal.

But I think we should help the developpers to find the better compromises. Something which could preserve the freedom of choice, versatility interest sure, but, also, in the meantime, rebalance things to make soft caps "great again" and help those who want to build their character without having to look into each tree to get the most competitive options.

 

This has probably been brought up before. What if they used opposing school tech to be used when swapping decks? For instance: when you swap a deck to fire spells using the fire innate then your water innate is not used, it is reduced to null. You do not lose the points/skills in it it is just zeroed out when using opposing schools. Maybe just for innates?

 

I remember Chris talking about changing the way resistances work. You cannot be resistant to all schools anymore.. sth like that. If it was through innates or a skill I am not sure. But I think he said passives will be changed in magic schools, and maybe death shield and celestial blessing get a rebalance as well.

Also the armor set bonuses will change. That effect could be huge and more defining of your chars role in combat. Melee DPS Leather, Plate Tank, Cloth Healer/CasterDPS... maybe. No one knows :/

 

That one was funny.

That's where is your mistake about me. I don't want to win others over their side. That would imply that all the truth is at my side or that I have to impose my opinion with seductive ways.

I want them to think by themselves about facts, to experiment every theory by their own means, and to draw their own conclusions. And when, sometimes, their conclusions are the same as mine, I don't win anything but maybe they do.

Also, the best thing in the debate is when someone brings the reason why everyone disagree and why nobody was totally wrong.

But I digress.

 

The topic the OP brought up was lack of specialization and I was responding to the OP tagging me and saying I'm "not a good example" of a specialization and insinuating that a sword user having heavy armor skills or spells they never use makes them not a specialist. Hmmm... can an ice mage have light and still be considered an ice mage...? Please discuss.

I only only ever hit things with a sword and NEVER cast even a single spell outside of my basement. I have multiple blades skills above 140 and the base skill at 150. I'm not going to accept the fact "they are right" when I never dabble in any alternate builds other than sword builds and never "dabble" in fire magic, death magic, etc. from time to time and never even cast light. I'm also not going to accept the fact "they are right" regarding having heavy armor, tactics (defensive buffs, strength, etc.), subterfuge (dex, silent movement, etc.), focus (int, focus, etc.) making me not a specialist.

I'm a specialist. I do ONE thing and I do that ONE thing very well. Anyone using me as an example otherwise is going to get a response from me.

 

A few thoughts I'd like to share.

I disagree with a number of things you said here. You do use magic, it's just for defense. It's understandable, the current system forces it on everyone. But to claim you don't use it is false and you should find another way to say that so as not to complicate the issue. (imo)

Let me give you an example of what it means to "not use" something. I currently don't use melee weapons and I wear robes. I use only magic to attack or defend. This makes me quite vulnerable to physical attack and provides me almost zero physical offensive ability. There's no "physical attunement" that I get to dip my beak into and reduce your sword if it were to attempt to cut me in two. That's because I'm self balancing as a roleplayer though, not because the game is balanced well.

It also does matter to specialization. You're a tank mage, like most players. Again, you're doing your part as a player and it's not you it's the poor design of the game. But you're still a tank mage just like anyone else using weapons. And as good as you are, if you didn't have attunement in death, fire, earth, air, water, etc... you would get your ass kicked by a great many players. (not trying to pick a fight with you here Sara, just trying to make my point)

My point is that having the luxury to have high attunement allows the highest level players to focus their attention on being a blade master that NEVER uses magic, and that's not what specialization is. True specialization means you have weaknesses by design. That's one of the major fundamental problems with this combat system. And unfortunately it's not clear if that will ever change.

I have suggested that one way to make the current system "better" would be to reduce the amount of magical resistance players get based on the type of armor they wear. This would help balance out some of the nonsense that you're describing because it would make you pick between high avoidance and high magic resistance.

I'd make it something like this:

Full Plate -75 magic resistance in all schools.
Full Chain -50
Full Leather -25
Full Cloth -0

I don't think that would fix all the problems we have. But I think it would be one quick move that could make today's game much better than it currently is.

As I see it, the biggest problem we have is that the players with all the power don't like the idea that they may have to pick between strengths and balanced weaknesses. And we have a development team that apparently feels comfortable with allowing that to be the status quo.

It's unfortunate that after 5 years of driving the combat car down the same ditch, we still have power gamers defending this horrible design, we still have developers telling us it will get better without any real examples of how, and we have the majority of our player population that either doesn't care enough or doesn't truly understand what the reality is.

Allowing players to "have everything" and achieving that power by grinding endlessly through abuse of AI or min/maxing abominations of character builds is not something that supports good roleplaying.


I'll leave you with this.

I have searched to find other mages like myself and found instead only hybrids. This greatly saddens me, as I'm sure you would love to battle and fight besides true warriors. Yet all of us, try as we might to work within this system are the same stupid class, the only class that can exist in this game, the class of Avatar.

 

"Use" to me is "using" the skill but I get what you're saying. I'll now say I have 41 million XP in "magic defense" because of the way defense to magic works in the game.

The design is unfortunate and stupid that I put 41 million into magic defense but calling me a tank mage might be a bit much. I don't cast. I'm a swordswoman with 41 million in inert and innate magic defense.

Not sure specialization is one of Port's goals... I think there goal is the opposite.

I'd be fine with this.

Not sure you're still talking about me but stated I wasnt a fan of it... I believe the term I used was "stupid". I still love the game though and Port going anti- specialization and pro-be whatever you want is there choice and many prefer this. Doesn't make either belief inherently wrong.

I'd love it if we had to.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Others can argue theirs.

Not sure if we're still talking about me...

No offense taken. I respect you because you're passionate. I do think you'd be surprised what I could do even naked and with no magic defense as I'd be just fine most of the time.

 

#1 Problem with combat is using glyph stacking / charging vs the traditional locked skill / cd used everywhere else.

This system alone will ensure a low population for as long as the game is running.

 

I was really only talking about you as a way to make my overall point. I began to talk more generally and I see that wasn't clear. Thanks for not taking everything to heart. That's one of the reasons I felt comfortable quoting you in the first place.

Maybe a better way of saying what I was trying to say would've been to suggest that you didn't put 41 million XP into magic resistance because it didn't have any benefit for you.

I often feel this way too. In fact I feel so strongly about this I often have to go back and look at recent times when they clearly stated they weren't trying to do that.

This is from the missed questions of R45:

This is way back after R44:

These are all very positive responses in my mind, but I don't think we've seen any of this actually happen yet. It would be nice if perhaps sometime soon this stuff would begin to appear either in-game or as intended improvements on the quarterly schedule.

 

I'm level 96 and i won many fights vs players level 110-120+ in Evl Tier A (reservated to level 100+) using a polearm life build (before Bec de Faucon).
When i was still level 80 i won the Season Evl Tournament Tier B (range lvl of opponents 85-100).
Lately Evl tournament's winner was Kor with a melee build.
BootMonkey won vs an earth mage level 120+ using sword and light armor.
The Tier B at the moment is dominated by archers/swords/spears.
Fizzle rate of some magic schools is crazy, i can't cast air with no fizzle (21.9 chance to fizzle with chainlighting) also with full cloth+shield.

Mages were nerfed release after release in near every aspects, from chaotic feedback to chainlighting, earth str bonus, glancing blow changes, increased fizzle of death tree,increased fizzle to all heavy armor parts etc.

As mage i get kicked just from melee classes, no hybrid or mage tank, just melee.

I read something from @Chris : Atos: I continue make changes to discourage the full plate mage casters but I don’t think this is the answer. Expect a change soon on how dominant armor types are determined. In other words, no more chain chest, cloth everything else casters once I change it.

Heavy armor mages are not already nerfed enough?

In my opinion this means no more classless system.
In every fantasy/roleplaying game shamans, clerics and paladins use magic wearing heavy armors and often shields;
SotA doing that will perhaps be the first Mmorpg to eliminate these kind of character from the game.
If the game is classless you must be free to combine everything and not forcing players to something but let them choose to be what they want to be.

As sandbox the progression system is the core of the game, limit the progression it will only make the game boring for veteran players, and the result is the quit from the game of best teachers for newbies.

It's really annoying hear about pvp complains just from people that i never seen around doing something competitive.
To be a pvper and do it well you need to pratice everyday, every hour spent in game.

This explains why i'm still level 96, i train myself and build my decks instead of grinding. If you lost vs me, then yea you're not trained enough, i'm not a god and i'm probably lower level than you.

If i'm not here opening threads and complaining everyday is just cause i don't think it is a good behavior and i really appreciate @Chris and his job (as developer i know it's not easy at all keep order here), but i received a nerf every release from about an year .

"Fight all you want, Portalarium will make more!"

I've always had to deal with this slogan and i love it new challenges every month.

I always liked SotA cause you don't need high level, if you're skilled and well trained you will be able to do great things, there is nothing impossible.

PS: I totally agree with @HogwinHD

 

Just to say: We have no softcap.

Mac said he loose 1Mio.
CP or Rise is / need to be capped to 1 Mio. /hour.

So if 1 Mio / hour is possible, where is the softcap?

 

So please correct me if I am wrong.. but is this discussion going towards the whole age ole argument about how lower level players feel like they should be equal to higher level players and be able to be competitive against them? Again Ive said this before and I will say this again... if that is what some of you want then I suggest to you that maybe you are playing the wrong game... guild wars has a very nice pvp arena system that allows players to play on equal grounds (though they are not equal in pve)... destiny, overwatch, ect also are games that your level does not affect your abilities as well. WITH THAT SAID.... do you guys remember when stacking decks was the only option also remember when some of the same people who are now making the whole "characters are not equal argument" cried about how stacking decks was "hard" and by stacking decks it made the combat systems unequal because some of you were bad at stacking decks. With any that said do any of you remember when Ryujin and Parallel were owning the pvp matches? Would you believe that they were owning the matches at level 60-70 and rarely went above 70 because it just wasn't necessary as "gasp" if you were a really good player (and do mind you we still spent 4-5 hours a day in kingsport practicing) you could take out practically anyone by just being faster and smarter with your combos. That is no longer a thing because people complained... but it certainly was a system that made it equalish. The thing is guys... no one is going to be able to compete with "power" gamers in ANY game because the raw truth is... if you play for 8-10 hours a day.. you just USUALLY get better at the game... the muscle memory gets better, the deck building gets better, the tactics get better. And lets be even more honest guys... in life not everyone gets a ribbon and not everyone is a winner. That doesn't mean you can't show up and have fun.

I once sat down at dinner with Richard and my husband asked him about his game (who at the time didn't play and still rarely logs on) and Richard said this for his "vision of the game" he said : He wanted a game where you could show up and be a merchant, a miner, a crafter, a fighter, or really anything you wanted to be... hell you can run a brothel in the game if you want. The thing is tho if you decide to be a "miner" and do not wish to spend hours and hours working on your fighting you will have to enter into a business agreement with a "fighter" to get you to and from the mines and protect you while you are there... that is the DESIGN of the game. The problem is everyone wants to be EVERYTHING and the real joy of the massive amounts of skills in the game is... you can either choose your own adventure and be a miner, a fighter, a magic user, or a crafter OR you can be all of the above if you really have the time to invest. HOWEVER, I can tell you guys now I do a bit of all of the above and I will never be a good miner, or a great crafter, or even as good as a fighter as Sara unless I decide to just be ONE thing. I might end up with 150 gms... but unless I decide to dedicate all my time to one... I'll never be great. You will not catch Sara and Andar mining and though Sara does make swords (for himself though there are certainly leftovers that get sold) do you think he goes out and mines his own ore? Do you think he even manages his own vendor? LOL No... he actually rarely even smelts his own ore (i do that) and that's why Sara is a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better fighter than I am.

Again this is why I dont come on the forums. I think way too many of these arguments are all about "I put money into the game so I want this *stomping foot*" for EVERY argument I see where someone is complaining that they spent money and they want this.. can you please also forward me the list of all the successful online video games you have created?

 

I thought I should inject something here for the sake of clarity for those (who I beleive to be in the majority) who read these posts but rarely if ever post ( or who only /r post elsewhere and like to twist things around) and who may not know some of these legendary players. Your statement is true if we only take a small cross section out of Sara's overall gameplay however... it must be stated that @Sara Dreygon FULLY paid her dues in the mines. She didn't just suddenly materialize as a top craftsperson; it's not like she's just a rich player who bought her way to the top with RL$. I've known Sara for a long time, probably like at east a year and 1/2 pre-persistence. I can therefore say in fairness that Sara is good because she's just hard wired to have a laser beam like focus

rofl...^^ this... lol.. funny stuff.

ok, carry on

 

Like I said I think calling someone like you a specialist is not right, even though you decided to use physical dmg exclusivly, you and I know that you also need high level magic skills to complement that, and in PVP ALL the skills should be levelled anyhow. That is the main discussion point for ages now. I made a post AGES ago how the resistance system does not work properly, and we see more and more people realizing that SotA is a ONE CLASS system in terms of that certain skills are absolutely necessary.

The way the skill system is designed is not appealing to a lot of people and I understand why.

The argument is has to do about casuals vs hardcore is a strawman that speck pulls out of nowhere.

Like I said Chris already mentioned he is going to change the way resistance works, so I'd rather see a discussion on how.
It an easy mathematical numbers game to rearrange softcaps and make everyone close in on us high levels in a week, and make 200 skill the new 100. Add a few tiers and EVERYTHING we got stockpiled becomes worthless. Is it that what we want? Or do we rather want a balanced game where we can just enjoy being pretty much maxxed out and play around with different builds and not worry so much about grinding mats and so on?

The problem with magic is on one side that most schools do not stand on their own right now. Chris is going to add new skills, but I doubt that changes it.
So yes SotA will very likely always remain a game where you have to make a hybrid compromise, but resistances should be their own tree or innate seperate from attunement.
Like I said Chris already hinted at something that makes it impossible to have max resist on everything (wards not accounted for).
That way people get competitive faster, and more players might actually take part in PVP content to come.
People like you and me stay more flexible, but the power gap is a little closer to new people. Combined with changes towards combat mechanics to a tiny bit more twitch based combat (counters and so on), this might actually become the best improvement yet.