New article about SotA - objective and interesting, worth a read

I don't want to pick on this comment specifically, because it's a valid impression. Yet I think it illustrates a point behind some of the negativity. And it fits Vallo's point. In reading about and even playing the game, it's hard for people to tell what kind of game this is. even if someone comes looking for an MMO. The latest description for the free trial: "Shroud of the Avatar is a fantasy RPG that combines single player narrative with a sandbox MMO." If MMO seekers are feeling they are putting "all their time into the single player experience" it just highlights the confusion because that is really far from the history and truth of the project.

The reason for the confusion is the fluid nature of the vision for the game. Starting out they made great pains to emphasize selective multiplayer, and the fact that it was not going to be an MMO. I'm not saying vision can't shift, but it's very dangerous in any kind of project. Now the team is in a bind because they can't state clearly where they're headed without pissing a large number of people off who've followed the project. They would get picked apart no matter what they described it to be. Yet the changing descriptions and lack of clarity allow people to be disappointed in almost every area. RG has done solo RPG's and UO. People hearing his name can bring different histories and expectations knowing it's one of his games. It's a tough nut to crack... but I think all the negativity has its origins in "what is SotA supposed to be?"

 

Ich hab mal kurz geblättert was so seit Anfang September für den Shop angekündigt oder „beworben“ wurde…

Bierkrugs + 2017 White & Black Banded Turkey Pet + 2017 Fall Wreath + Ornated Pillories + Ornated Prison Cages + Prison Homes + 2017 Spooky Rares

…und so viel ist das gar nicht. (Ich selbst würde da die „Make a Difference“-Gegenstände nicht reinzählen, da es ja hier eher um die Spende an eine Stiftung geht, aber auch dann wäre es nur 2 mehr)
Und jetzt beim schnelles Durchblättern kam es mir so vor, als wenn viel mehr über neue Szenen, Änderungen im Spiel und sonstige Gegenstände berichtet wurde, die es also nicht im Shop gibt, sondern die erspiel werden müssen bzw. die es als Belohnung für dieses oder jenes gibt, als über Neues für den Addon-Store. Natürlich müssen sie den Leuten mitteilen, dass es was Neues zu kaufen gibt, damit Geld für die Entwicklung bereit steht, aber ich hatte jetzt nicht den Eindruck, dass mir beim Durchgehen der News ständig eine Kaufanfrage ins Gesicht springt...kann aber auch sein, dass das nur mein persönliches Empfinden ist.

Thinking about it this could be true or at least it could be a one of the roots why some are that negative if they expected something but hear here and there something different.

 

A game.
And games should be fun.
The problem isn't "uhhh i don't know what kind of game it is!"
The problem is "i think the game isn't fun!"

 

Except for the fact that fun isn't the same for everyone. That's why they look for things they think will be fun based on the types of things they like. You can't market something as "a game".

Even if a game is fun to some people (and SotA is), if you bring people in the door with a certain expectation for a type of game that doesn't prove to be true, it's not going to be fun to them. And then even if expectations are in-line with what type of game it is, there's still a chance it might not be fun. Both/And.

 

Alright then let me be clarify. There is a difference between focusing on negative (being negative/pessimistic) and focusing on perceived problems.

I am well aware the game is unfinished. There are things that need to be addressed, fixed, fleshed out, balanced etc. There are PLENTY of design choices I don't agree with for various reasons and I will keep my personal opinions of those out of this discussion. BUT, there's a lot of good stuff too. It's not enough to only acknowledge what you think is wrong, the good should be acknowledged also.

You'll never hear me say stuff like that game is doomed to fail if they don't fix A, B and C to my liking or making insinuations about the devs, the community or how the forums are moderated and then expressing my disbelief when they turn out not to be true (even though I've been here for years and should know better by now). None of which is particularly helpful to anyone. Least of all the game, the community or the devs.

 

But quite objectively speaking the issues brought up most of the time are pretty founded. Like no phasing for Quests for example. Or lack of sandbox features for PVP. Inaccessibility of property or even POTs for people with a smaller wallet and more casual playstyle... You cannot argue around that? Do you?

E.g. if Darkstarr says he wants guild wars with options to set a win condition and timers etc.... they can safe the dev time... Most PVPers want sth deeper than that, and explained that time and time again in the forums and outside of the forums.

Same issue on roleplay. Roleplayers want deeper experiences than just an event to dance or watch a gust ball event. Ofc course those can be fun... but they alone don't make the boat float.

I am sure they could win over some of the singleplayer enthusiasts if they provided deeper quests, maybe in form of Seers like UO did for a while. We have so many community members that would be up for sth like that.

They would certainly win over some of the PVP crowd again, if they implement a justice or virtue system into PVP. Order vs. Chaos was popular in UO...

Their approach of developing step by step and fixing stuff on the way has lead to a lot of frustration and isn't compatible with a sandbox game especially in persistence.
It would have been better to flesh out some of the features first and then release them. I hope they consider that in the future.

 

I think perception is a major issue here. If I may make an assertion, (and not meaning to imply about anyone in particular) the average player just doesn't really fully understand and appreciate the development process. ie Well $12M is a LOT of money.. why isn't this done? It's been X years and KS said 1 year etc.

I don't think it's possible to completely solve this problem but I do think Portalarium could do a lot better in this area to educate the community which I think could conceivably go a long way. Perhaps a FAQ and a couple educational videos or something with links in the forum as well as the main website. Kind of a crash course on agile game development.

 

Yes, communicating has been neglected a bit. Especially the telethon are more a sales show than anything.
But on the other hand similar projects have shown it can be different in the same time frame. So it can't be dismissed that easily as well.
Time will tell. But yes most of that could have been avoided through right communication.

 

Just because someone with an axe to grind decides they are entitled to things they aren't, such as population charts during the testing phase or financial statements, doesn't suddenly make Portalarium 'bad at communicating.'

Communication hasn't been neglected at all. Consider how much effort is put into answering every question asked during every telethon. Consider the depth of the patch notes. We're above par for the information we're entitled to already.

Anyways, I'm not sure why this thread even exists still. It covers too wide a variety of topics to be helpful. We're slowing the process by constantly allowing reviews to be posted in general discussion. I will make a new thread suggesting that a section for player reviews be created.

 

I agreed with you in my first post... and I am not arguing these points. I spent a lot of energy trying to keep a thread going on phasing for quests. I'm very sympathetic to the others. Don't think I see a disconnect.

 

Since I never played ultimate online I had no preconceived idea of what this game should or shouldn't be like. I've been playing around 3 weeks but have put in heaps of hours. Starting area seemed like any other game but when I left it and landed on Novia at first I thought nothing but tiny houses here they haven't finished the map. Realized after a few minutes that everything was instanced. That was my first shock. Okay I thought it is as it is even though I didn't like the idea at all. I'm now up to tier 3 and nothing changes instances just about carbon copies of tier 2 except now Im fighting tier 3 skeleton wolves etc same mobs I was fighting in tier 1 and 2. Now I'm finding myself standing in front of instances wondering if I should even bother going in. Finding myself bored to tears and end up going back to my main game. I don't even mind the combat and the skill tree even though Ill never use the locked combat deck. Housing is good. Got given a row house no way I.m paying real money for a virtual house. Don't think I'll even get used to those tiny instances and spending a lot of my time watching my screen loading. Ill keep playing now and again to see if when I'm a higher level it gets better but I'm beginning to doubt it.

 

Hello and welcome Mercymay. Thank you so much for your feedback. Yes Sota does have instanced areas. It is important to hear how new users experience the game so development can address concerns to make the experience better. So the instances won't go away. The plan is to keep shortening them to almost instant instances .

Also if you point at the yellow exclamation on the scenes it should tell a little about that scene like how difficult, is that adventure scene, are there vendors in the scene etc. This will continue to be improved as with many things.

Also no one has to ever purchase Land and housing in Sota. We have renting and inns etc, many free rooms, and some housing too. You can deco and store what you want in your room or house, bind to your home, play music, craft, and so much more.

If I can ever assist I'm Majoria in the game and I'd be happy to show you around, assist, or just say hello. Again thank you for sharing your experience and here's to more progress on the player experience

 

yesi agree and it is about with what aproach you play the game and with whom or alone.
when i did a Steam Review (positive) i wrote it is about your way you aproach the game.
I recently was very annoyed because PvP and skillsystem aren't what i want or expect, its just the same like allways and i was disappointed because it doesnt fit my Style to play. After a break, the idea of what is my aproach to the game and how can i deal with things i dont like i thinked back what was my compromise before and why was it no more possible or less good for me, so that i was annoyed again.
People never like everything of a game, the renounce to do some parts of it find a compromise or quit.
To me this is RP and PvP. I want to RPvP, but its skillsystem and some other things make it impossible for me, the compromise i would need to make would kill my RP. So i was annoyed to have to decide if i want to PvP or to RP, both things wont happen, because to me they just don't fit.
And that made me sad, because it is allways the case in all games since i play games - i maybe missed some where it was better, but all games i played this was the issue. PvP= minmax gaming, RP= character play, strength and weaknesses are equal important to me.
RP was allways more important in RPG's than PvP, in a Shooter PvP is allways more important to me than to RP.
I allways wanted a game what combines both in a good way, and was full of hope and expectations for SotA to do this - but again, not gonna happen.
So your question above is totally right and everybody need to answer this question to himself and then make the compromises or just quit and leave the project.
Idk if i'm done for ever and found my compromise again, because it allways put's the pressure on if it is about RP related to gamemechanics.
So what is SotA supposed to be?
To me in the first line a Roleplaygame where i want to Roleplay - i'm allways surprised how many poeple dont roleplay, but want to play roleplaygames. But i need to say i have never seen a Computer RPG what fits this, its allways and only about RPG Elements imho.
They all claim to have cool features for RP, like emotes, Housing (see people who use their house only as Storage and also min max this while growing addiotnally indoor for example, while having also outdoor plants etc...) or player created quests or whatever, but in the end its not that people roleplay while PvE for example and games aren't made to do that. You can do that, but nobody does or wants to, et least very, very few people - but anyway...
Everbody need to decide what is SotA to him and then make compromises. Those who just want to grind and max everything and achieve everything are the people who can fully enjoy SotA, they need not to make compromises, they just game the RPG Mechanics and thats it!
To them SotA seems to fit perfectly. All the others, PvPers, Roleplayers, Casual gamers, PvE only Players, Crafters, Socializers need to answer the question for themself and then find their compromise or leave.

i think its more about what did one expect to get and what one is really getting.
If there is a huge divergence in expectations and reality that is what make people disapointed.
And people who for example expect it more SP with MP option would say they didn't know this was meant to be the opposite
a MP Game with SP Option.
Same for the MMO players - MP is not MMO - think of people who played DAoC where MMO was not only defined by 2000 people on a server playing solo, but 500 players interact at the same time at the same spot to play together or against each other.
You can see that meanwhile people believe that LoL or whatever is a MMO, because it has online gameplay and 50k players play it.
But what they miss is, that only 6 (?) people play at the same time together and not 500 or even 1000.

Agree - that is where i allway complain that the say its a RPG, but near to nobody Roleplays or care for gamemechanics that fit RP beside housing, decorating, emotes and such.

thats very true - like it.

TRUE!
i want the gamemechanics fit Roleplaying and sure we all can RP a chainmail-chopstick-wielding fire-water-death-life-air-earth-sun-moon-chaosmage, but...
or wait there are variations: shields and only one chopstick, even specialized blademasters, but still mastered all magic and whatnot.
RP without PvP is a compromise i have to make, but long term its lame only RP with PvP is really interesting RP.
RPG without people roleplaying is like a Racing Game, where the achievements are to make as much photos while driving slow, admiring the landscape

Not all scenes are uncloned yet, but many were and there are sure more "generous" scenes than unique ones and sure even these you get used too if you visited them for the 10th time, but there are also really, really well designed and fun to play scenes, maybe not to go there 100 times, but with more flexibility aka higher level yu can choose to go the one day there and the other day somewhere else. The Main Story Path has some interesting, challenging and puzzle-intensive scenes.
But i agree to some degree that this concept is maybe hard to love. On the other hand it i can imagine a lot of cool things you can build in scenes what you cannot that easy in a seamless open world and Devs have the option to use these possibilities and figure out what is possible with the combination of the world map and the scenes.
edit: for example look at the Game Master Mode Divinity 2 has. You wont build a huge seamless world, you build very small scenes - compared to SotA's scenes they are really super small - but you can do 3 hours of gameplay in only one scence if you do it right and roleplay and if it is not just about fighting.
This said, i can imagine Quests and some cool things you can build with scenes, maybe connected to each other without to have to go to the OW Map, but also including OWM travelling. They just haven't done or foccussed on things like that. I hope they will create more diverse things than just Scnes where people grind to the next tier.

I didnt want to do thread necromancy, i just read it today and found some good suggestions i want to comment

 

I think this project was simply too massive as it stands. I only pledged the price to play the game if it ever releases. However, now that I look back on it I think that was a wise decision. It always troubled me that they attempted to make 2 simultaneous game modes (offline and online play). I had faith in Richard Garriot to develop a game akin to those of the past, mostly Ultima.

However, I think it would have been a far wiser decision to create a solid single player RPG as a successor to Ultima. Of course, it would have been far more difficult to generate funds by promising players in game items. Players would be paying for a finished, polished, great RPG and Portalarium would have had to rely on content sales rather than promises they've already admitted they cannot keep.

After reading the Kickstarter comments, I think a lot of people are pissed off at Portalarium. They promised a product, didn't deliver, and now have the gall to not provide Kickstarter promises because it isn't a contract. In a game originally based on virtue (Ultima 4-9), it appears Garriot has none.

 

I would like to give you thousands likes

 

All I can say is it's foolish to ignore critics.

 

@Ultima Aficionado

If I could give an award for the shortest, most direct post of the overall problem(s) with this game, it would go to you. Few have managed to come close to describing as many problems in three paragraphs without setting out some sort of holy war on these forums.

Nice work.

 

It only describes 50% of the problem, but I agree to the general issues he raises

 

50%'s being generous. There are entire dissertations that could be written about the problems in this game. Just meant to say that, for the space he occupied with that short post, it highlighted much more than most contain around here. Honestly, though, everything else has been beaten to death. Portal's got our feedback, they've got the data from what players do (and don't do) in game and they're probably gonna stick to their guns and hope whenever they declare the game launched that the PR bump brings people back in droves.