One thing which no one disagrees upon

Discussion in 'Crafting & Gathering' started by Vladamir Begemot, Jun 11, 2019.

  1. Chrystoph Reis

    Chrystoph Reis Avatar

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    Matter of opinion. I use it all the time, to space mobs, so I can focus on a single target and clearly identify who I'm weakening first. Also allow other group members to see who I am Not targeting and focus on that one mob, or to pick the stragglers off. It's all about playstyle.
     
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  2. Chrystoph Reis

    Chrystoph Reis Avatar

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    Minor is there so you don't get perfect gear all the time... what makes gear special is getting that roll... otherwise nothing is special.
     
  3. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    Currently, there isn't much special about it. It's not feasible to get 'perfect' gear, even if you don't get minors.
     
  4. Spungwa

    Spungwa Avatar

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    I don't agree, what makes gear special is rarity and player usefulness. RNG is not the only way to make things rare. For example making it very expensive in materials achieves rarity too. There are other mechanisms, that was just one, that can be applied to keep things rare and therefore special.


    Regards
    Spung
     
  5. Kara Brae

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    @Vladamir Begemot

    Apparently this is a very complex subject. As someone who only crafts chairs and tables and stuff it is a black box to me. I wonder if it would be possible for you or someone else to summarize the problem in a few words without going into too much detail just to give non-crafters a vague idea about what is wrong. If it is not possible, that's ok, too. I'll just be glad I don't have to deal with it.
     
  6. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    I'm not super versed on it either. I have been told many times by the expert weapon and armor people "Never take X, it's totally worthless."

    But now it's not appearing here in much detail.
     
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  7. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    @Vladamir Begemot
    The post that Joe made about want mw/enchants I completely agree with - for my own wand crafting purposes. That's not to say I haven't been asked for wands with dex on (air mage builds) but for most cases, yes, you want spelldmg/spellcrit mw, and int/attune/skillbonus (stone arrow, ice arrow, deathray, etc. depending on flavor). Anything else is crap unless its a 4th and results in the wand going into the reject pile.

    You could make the same generalizations on weapons, most people want the skill damage bonuses or the generic bonuses / strength, the things that add 2% chance to do something or extend the duration of something by such a small amount its usually not even noticeable due to latency - not as desired and usually results in reject pile.

    For armor, most people want "stat"/avoidance masterworks and pure stat enchants depending on what it is. Occasionally you'll want one of the gem-chest procs but most of those are still considered inferior to raw stats.

    Stuff like "light armor skill focus cost reduction" is almost completely useless since those skills don't cost much to begin with, and the amount they are reduced doesn't amount to much, and even if it made the skills FREE, it would be inferior to straight up stat bonuses. The resist %s don't do a great deal, the lighter the armor, the worse it is, adding even 20% to something that has a base value of "2" (bringing it up to 2.4) doesn't matter for much. The move speed, sprint speed, attack speed stuff you can get are all extremely minor effects that are usually reserved for very niche builds and even then are of questionable noticeability.

    Some of these could be made useful if their potency was cranked way up - If for example, you got a 10-20% move speed boost from the boots masterwork instead of the 2.x%, then it would be something to consider. You have two people run a long distance, one with the effect and one without, you'd be hard pressed to tell which was what. Like the refining speed bonuses from passives, there is a bigger disparity from performance/latency than there is from the actual bestowed effect. Same thing with the attack speed mw really, its pretty minor and hard to notice. We tested this on practice dummies and couldn't even account for 1 extra autoattack after 100, it was inconclusive.

    So, to summarize: (with the big "ignoring edge case" caveat)

    Good/Useful:
    MW -Weapon/Spell Damage, Crit Chance, Weapon/Spell Crit Damage, Pure Stats, Skill Weapon Damage, Avoidance
    Enchant - Pure Stats, attunement/skill bonus on wand, a few very specific gem bonuses.

    Durability MW is "okay" in that it gives you another try if other choices are awful, or potentially can help redeem an item.
    Everything else I would say is less desirable.
     
  8. Scoffer

    Scoffer Avatar

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    Ok, here is my attempt to simplify what is being discussed. For this I will use blacksmith as an example but this can be applied across all crafting professions when it comes to masterworking (and enchants).

    When you masterwork, you get 3 choices come up out of the pool. For the example below I will use Plate helmets to illustrate. Your choices available in the pool are:
    Damage Avoidance
    Strength
    Stun resist
    Durability
    Health
    Damage Resist
    Greater Damage Resist
    -Heavy armor skill focus cost.

    The order I've listed them in above is typically the way I would apply them in order of preference. So, when you hit the masterwork button it will randomly choose 3 of these options and let you pick one of those.
    Now here is the situation:
    [​IMG]
    The helmet on the left has Greater Damage Resist (+12%) Masterwork. The one on the right has Damage Resist (+8%), 9.2% damage resist is from the material bonus. The one on the left is better right?
    Well, no. If you look at the Damage resist stat they are both 2.3, both have a max of 8.8% the only actual difference is the -2 durability in applying the "greater" one.
    By having two options in there which are exactly the same end result dilutes the pool because when i masterwork and get my 3 options come up, 2 of them could be these, the third could be Heavy Armor skill focus cost which is equally worthless (Glancing blow at 120 costs 6 focus, Absorb impacts at GM costs 5, both last over 2 minutes and the masterwork reduces the cost by 20% saving you 1 focus every 2 minutes.....)
    Why would you ever choose Health as an option if strength came up which also gives you health, increases your physical damage, carry capacity etc etc.

    There are many, many examples of this kind of thing across masterworking and enchanting across the board. Increasing your level adds more options further diluting the pool. At level 98(?) you get the option to add Durability. For a long time many people capped their skill at 97 so they only had 7 options rather than 8 in the pool to increase their chances of getting what they actually wanted.

    The example above is the best case scenario, getting good plate helmets is easy enough because you only have 8 options. Bludgeon weapons have 15 in the pool....
     
  9. Chrystoph Reis

    Chrystoph Reis Avatar

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    OMFG wow! Dude... it's for the Item not for your DR!

    and never Heavy armor skill focus cost? SMFH! As a tank that uses skills like body slam often that can drain focus... ugh never mind... your killing me.
     
  10. Scoffer

    Scoffer Avatar

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    Sorry, you seem to be misinformed. Damage Resistance masterwork on plate is Damage Resistance applied to your character
    [​IMG]
    As you can see on the screenshot above.
    I believe what you are talking about is the enchant for Durability Effectiveness
    [​IMG]
    This is the one that I believe you are talking about effecting the item, not your DR and it works (and is named) the same as the tactics passive
    [​IMG]

    As for your second point, even a full heat body slam that costs 86 focus you are saving 17 focus with that masterwork. Granted that in some situations that might be useful there are better options overall.

    Let me know when you are next online, I'll make you some better armour with more informed masterworks so that you are not dying as often.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
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  11. Lord Tachys al`Fahn

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    I can see what you're saying, but if that's the case (and the math is *snert* right [not laughing at you... honest]), then why isn't the first example 2.4 (2+(2*.212)) rather than 2.3?
     
  12. Scoffer

    Scoffer Avatar

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    Probably down to Sota math....

    Thinking about it though its probably applying each bonus separately and then rounding the results down (so applying the 9.2 from the material and the 12% from the materwork on the base value)

    But whether its supposed to be 2.3 or 2.4 I've spent around 55 million exp getting my plate masterwork to level 140 for.....0.3 increase in my damage resistance for that piece of armor.
     
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  13. Lord Tachys al`Fahn

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    One would think you should be able to MW armor that could go fight FOR you, at that level...
     
  14. Scoffer

    Scoffer Avatar

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    Actually doing the math on it the only way I can see it working is by applying them both separately.

    2 + 9% from the material bonus = 2.184, Round this down to 2.1
    2.1 + 12% from the greater resist materwork = 2.352, round this down to 2.3
     
  15. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    Well, dangit. I've been taking DR on light armor, because somehow I had it in my head that Avoidance was better on heavy armor, DR better on light. (And why so many dang skills that buff avoidance, and only one that buffs dodge? A gripe for another thread...)

    Looks like I've got some tailoring to do when I get home tonight.
     
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  16. Vladamir Begemot

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    Thank you @kaeshiva and @Scoffer, this was what I was hoping for. Well, I was really hoping someone would copy paste the long list and just label each one "Great, mediocre, garbage" or something.

    The whole point being something that @Bzus can look at and do a balance pass, thus making a lot more things useful. More useful is interesting. A lot of garbage isn't.

    Unfortunately we were all arguing at the start, so unless he sees this tag, this was probably a wasted topic.
     
  17. Scoffer

    Scoffer Avatar

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    There is no way to really do this unfortunately, What some people think of as garbage may have situational use in other areas. I know many players that have multiple sets of gear depending on what they are doing. I personally have 3 sets of gear for general killing, boss farming and mining which is probably unnecessary at this point but nice to have anyway.
     
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  18. Cora Cuz'avich

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    I should have recorded last night's tailoring efforts. I've never gotten so many first round MW fails before. Thankfully I was just using plain leather; I went through about 1500 animal hides to make a new chest, and ended up with nothing worth using. :rolleyes:

    And still ended up taking DR on many of them because it was the least crap option.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
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  19. Charon

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    That, in a nutshell, is why I've been stockpiling exceptional armor, exceptional weapons, gold and silver ingots for months.
     
  20. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    It'll be interesting to see what happens to the market once crafting specs start coming in. I suspect a lot of people are hoarding materials. It'll be a buyer's market for a while, for sure.