One thing which no one disagrees upon

Discussion in 'Crafting & Gathering' started by Vladamir Begemot, Jun 11, 2019.

  1. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    There should not be Masterworks/Enchantments that are so bad that being forced to choose them means the gear is junk.

    This is an indication that some of these are under powered. If they were combat skills they would get constant tuning, but for some reason crafting does not get that attention.

    Since crafting is in focus, a balance pass is in order. But @Chris always declines to balance because these belong to @Bzus, but he doesn't stream and hear this stuff. So someone please get the following to them.

    I summon @kaeshiva ! I summon @ldykllr ! I summon @Elrond ! I summon all high end crafters who I missed!

    Please list which of these you consider to be totally worthless, partially worthless, and perhaps by how much (does it need to be 2x more powerful) or a reason.

    Any you think are OP, let us know as well.

    Taking this from the ongoing list.

    Note: Even if the below stats are outdated, the crafters are still seeing the current up to the minute choices when they craft, so the primary reason for listing this is for a reminder of the many types.

    Enchantment

    Strength (Gloves, Boots, Helm can get +1 or +2, Chest, Legs +2 or +4)
    Intelligence (Gloves, Boots, Helm can get +1 or +2, Chest, Legs +2 or +4)
    Dexterity (Gloves, Boots, Helm can get +1 or +2, Chest, Legs +2 or +4)
    Minor Focus +10 Focus -10 durability
    Minor Health +10 Health -10 durability
    Focus +20 Focus -20 durability
    Health +20 Health -20 durability

    These below are if you GEM the item before enchanting you have a chance at one of these.

    Air - Citrine - Theurgy
    Gust: On Hit (10%): 10% Chance to knockback 4 meters and 10% Chance to Stun 1 sec (Weapons)
    Galvanic Blast: On Hit (10%): 4-20 Air Damage (Weapons)
    Deftness: On Hit (5%): Dexterity Bonus +10 Dexterity for 60 Seconds (Chests)
    Discharge Power: +15% Discharge Damage (Chests)
    Earth Resist (No durability cost) (Chests)


    Air - Citrine - Theurgy - Jewelry
    Gust Chance: +1% Gust Chance (seen on ring)
    Galvanic Blast Power: +12.5% Galvanic Blast Damage (seen on ring and necklace) - Need Galvanic Blast: On Hit Weapon for this

    Death - Onyx - Necromancy
    Drain Health: On Hit (10%): 1-14 Death Damage (Weapons)
    Death Ray Strength Damage: +21-24% Death Ray Strength (Weapons)
    Near Death Power: +12.1% Near Death Damage Bonus (Chests) -30 durability
    Corpse Explosion Power: +20% Corpse Explosion Damage (Chests) -30 durability
    Life Resist: 13.4% Life Resistance (Chests)

    Death - Onyx - Necromancy - Jewelry
    Death Creature Damage: +5.3% Summoned Death Creature Damage
    Drain Health Power: +7.5% Drain Health Damage - Need Drain Health: On Hit Weapon for this

    Earth - Emerald - Gaiaism
    Tremor: On Hit (10%): 5-22 Earth Damage (Weapons)
    Stone Arrow: +24% Obsidian Arrow Strength Bonus (Wands)
    Weapon Power: On Hit 5% Weapon Strength Damage, +33% Weapon SD for 60 seconds (Chests)
    Strength of Earth Power: +20.7% Strength of Earth (Chests)
    Air Resist: 13.6 Air Resist (No durability cost)

    Earth - Emerald - Gaiaism - Jewelry
    Tremor Power: +7.5% Tremor Damage (Jewelry) - Need Tremor: On Hit Weapon for this
    Root Range: 0.5 Root Range (Jewelry)

    Fire - Ruby - Sorcery
    Fire Damage: +2.5% Fire Damage (Weapons)
    Ignite: On Hit (10%): 1-3 Physical Damage every 2 seconds for 6 seconds (Weapons)
    Fire Range: +10 Fire Range (Chests)
    Weapon Swiftness: On Hit (5%): +10% Attack Speed (-40 Durability) (Chests)
    Water Resist (No durability cost) (Chests)

    Fire - Ruby - Sorcery - Jewelry
    Ignite Chance: 1.5% Ignite Chance (Jewelry) - Need Ignite: On Hit Weapon on this
    Weapon Swiftness: 1% Weapon Swiftness (Jewelry)

    Life - Diamond - Theurgy Gem
    Life Effectiveness: +3.9% Life Effectiveness (Weapons)
    Banish Undead: On Hit (10%): Banish Undead (Weapons)
    Healing Power: On Hit (5%): Heal Self (Chests)
    Mend: 5% On Hit Heal Self (Recover 4 -13 HP) (Chests)
    Death Resist (No durability cost) (Chests)

    Life - Diamond - Theurgy - Jewelry
    Mend Chance: 1% Mend Chance
    Banish Undead Power: 5% Banish Undead Damage - Need Banish Undead: On Hit Weapon for this, or may increase Banish Undead Spell as well)

    Sun - Garnet - Atenism
    Blistering Ray: On Hit (10%) Blistering Ray (Weapons)
    Blind: On Hit (10%) Blind (Weapons)
    Sun Strength: 5% On Hit for STR +20 Day and +10 Night (Chests)
    Sunlight: Light source -20 durability (Chests)
    Moon Resist (No durability cost) (Chests)

    Sun - Garnet - Atenism - Jewelry
    Blistering Ray: 18.5% Blistering Ray Damage - Need Blistering Ray: On Hit Weapon for this
    Sun Strength Chance: 1.5% Sun Strength Chance

    Water - Sapphire - Tempestry
    Ice Arrow Power: +14% Ice Arrow Damage (Weapons)
    Soothing Rain Power: +14.0% Soothing Rain Healing (Weapons)
    Soothing Rain Radius: +28.5% Soothing Rain Radius (Chest)
    Fire Resistance: 5% On Hit for +10% Fire Resistance for 1 Minute (Chests)
    Fire Resist (No durability cost) (Chests)

    Water - Sapphire - Tempestry - Jewelry
    Douse Power: 3% Douse Power Duration
    Summoned Water Creature: 5% Summoned Water Creature Damage

    Moon - Amethyst - Lunaism
    Shadow Form Length: 20.6% Shadow Form Length
    Night Step Range: 10.3% Night Step Range
    Deadly Night: 5% On Hit for Critical Bonus for 5 seconds (Chests)
    Moonlight: (Light Source) (Chests)
    Sun Resist (No durability cost) (Chests)

    Moon - Amethyst - Lunaism - Jewelry
    Night Step: 7.5% Night Step Range
    Moonlight: (Light Source/Bugged)

    Level 98 Weapon Enchant Opens Up the Increase 7%-9% Durability Enchant
    Level 98 Armor Enchant Opens Up the Increase 7%-9% Durability Enchant

    Masterwork

    General Stats on Armor
    Intelligence (Cloth Armor) +1.4 On Gloves, Helm, Boots, +2.8 On Chest, Legs
    Strength (Heavy Armor) +1.4 On Gloves, Helm, Boots, +2.8 On Chest, Legs
    Dexterity (Leather Armor) +1.4 On Gloves, Helm, Boots, +2.8 On Chest, Legs

    General Masterwork on Weapons:
    Weapon Critical: +3% Weapon Critical Chance
    Weapon Critical Damage: +5% Weapon Critical Damage
    Weapon Damage: +3.8% Weapon Damage
    Weapon Base Damage: +0.3 Weapon Damage
    Weapon Strength Damage: +3.8% Weapon Strength Damage
    Spell Damage: +3.8% Spell Damage (Wands)
    Spell Critical Damage: +3.8% Spell Critical Damage (Wands)

    These are all that's offered for General Cloth Armor:

    Chest and Legs
    Greater Armor Defense: +15% Item Damage Resistance (Chest, Legs)
    Armor Defense: +7.5% Item Damage Resistance (Chest, Legs)
    Focus: +10 Focus (Chest, Legs)
    Intelligence +2.8 Int (Chest, Legs)
    Armor Avoidance: +2.8% Damage Avoidance (Chest, Legs)

    Boots / Gloves / Helm
    Greater Armor Defense: +7.5% Item Dmge Resist (Boots, Gloves, Helm)
    Armor Defense: +5% Item Damage Resistance (Boots, Gloves, Helm)
    Focus: +5 Focus (Boots, Gloves, Helm)
    Intelligence +1.4 Int (Boots, Gloves, Helm)
    Armor Avoidance: +1.4% Damage Avoidance (Boots, Gloves, Helm)

    Special Cloth or Leather Masterworks:
    Attack Speed: +4.2% Attack Speed (Gloves)
    Dodge Power: +10% Dodge Power and Duration (Legs)
    Evasion Power: +10% Evasion Power and Duration (Chest)
    Flurry Power: +14.2% Flurry Power and Duration (Gloves)
    Focus Regeneration: 0.1% Focus Regeneration (Helm)
    Light Armor Skill Focus: -35.2% Light Armor Skill Focus Cost (Helm)
    Move Rate: +2.2% Move Rate (Boots)
    Sprint Power: +10% Sprint Power and Duration (Boots)
    Durability: +30 Durability to Item (Level 98)

    Special Plate or Chain Armor Masterworks:
    Attack Speed: +1% Attack Speed (Gloves)
    Body Slam: +20% Body Slam Stun and Duration (Chest)
    Glancing Blow: +10% Glancing Blow Power and Duration (Legs)
    Heavy Armor Skill Focus Cost: -25% Focus Heavy Armor Cost (Helm)
    Move Rate: +1% Move Rate (Boots)
    Stun Resistance: +5% Stun Resistance (-10 Durability) (Helm)
    Durability: +30 Durability to Item (Level 98)

    Special Ranged Masterworks
    Aimed Shot Power: +14.4% Aimed Shot Damage
    Blinding Shot Power: +14% Blinding Shot Damage
    Blinding Shot Debuff Power: +14.5% Blinding Shot Power and Duration
    Disabling Shot Power: +13.4% Disabling Shot Power
    Disabling Shot Debuff Length: +13.9% Disabling Shot Debuff Duration
    Multishot Damage: +7.6% Multishot Damage
    Piercing Shot Power: +14.5% Piercing Shot Damage
    Rapid Fire Power: 7.4% Rapid Fire Damage
    Durability: +30 Durability to Item (Level 98)

    Special Blade Masterworks:
    Coup de Grace: +10% Coup de Grace Damage (-15 Durability)
    Rend Damage: +10% Rend Damage (-15 Durability)
    Rend Length: +10% Rend Length (-15 Durability)
    Riposte Power: +10% Riposte Power and Duration (-15 Durability)
    Slash Damage: +10% Double Slash Damage (-15 Durability)
    Thrust Damage: +10% Thrust Damage (-15 Durability)
    Whirling Blades: +10% Whirling Blades Damage (-15 Durability)
    Durability: +30 Durability to Item (Level 98)

    Special Bludgeon Masterworks:
    Break Armor Power: 15.6% Break Armor Damage
    Break Weapon Power: 15.6% Break Weapon Damage
    Crushing Blow Power: 15.6% Crushing Blow Damage
    Crushing Blow Stun Length: 15.1% Crushing Blow Stun Length
    Crushing Blow Stun Chance: 4.5% Crushing Blow Stun Chance
    Knockback Knockback Chance: 4.5% Knockback Chance
    Knockdown Knockdown Chance: 4.5% Knockdown Chance
    Durability: +30 Durability to Item (Level 98)

    Special Polearm Masterworks:
    Leg Sweep Damage: +15.1% Leg Sweep Damage
    Leg Sweep Knockdown Chance: +4.6% Leg Sweep Chance
    Pull Damage: +15.4% Pull Damage
    Pull Range: +10% Pull Range
    Puncture Damage: +15.8% Puncture Damage
    Push Damage: +15.6% Push Damage
    Skewer Damage: +16.2% Skewer Damage
    Skewer Root Chance: +4.9% Skewer Root Chance
    Skewer Root Length:+16.2% Skewer Root Length
    Spinning Attack: +16.3% Spin Attack Damage
    Durability: +30 Durability to Item (Level 98)

    Wand Masterworks:
    Focus: +7 Focus -5 Durability
    Major Focus: +17 Focus -10 Durability
    Max Focus: +8.0% Focus -10 Durability
    Reagent Use: -7% Basic Magic Reagent Use -10 Durability
    Spell Critical Damage: +4% Spell Critical Damage -10 Durability
    Spell Damage: +4% Spell Damage -10 Durability
    Durability: +30 Durability to Item (Level 98)

    Special Shield Masterworks:
    Block Bonus: +2.3 Combat Block Modifier (Level 6)
    Damage Resist: 22.7% Damage Resistance (Level 6)
    Shield Bash Knockdown Chance: +10% Shield Bash Knockdown Chance (Level 6)
    Shield Bash Stun Length: +10% Shield Bash Stun Length Duration
    Shield Focus Cost: -24.2% Shield Focus Glyphs (Level 8)
    Testudo: -20% Move Rate Using Testudo
    Armor Avoidance: +2.8% Damage Avoidance (Level 10)
    Durability: +30 Durability to Item (Level 98)
     
  2. Spungwa

    Spungwa Avatar

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    Unfortunately it is not that simple. Crafting is complex, a good thing.

    But what generally makes gear worthless is bad combinations, not individual effects being bad.

    Eg getting only str and dex for enchants on a dolus hood. If you want a dolus hood you are most likely stacking int. But that does not mean the other enchants are broken.

    Eg getting all minor stats. But still want minor stats, so you have a chance to put 2 of one stat on a piece.

    Eg getting armour resistance on light armour is essentially useless, but still want it in the options for heavy armour. May even be some very niche light armour build where it is useful.


    Regards
    Spung
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  3. Lazlo

    Lazlo Avatar

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    Item damage resist on cloth armor is trash.
     
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  4. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    I have been repeatedly warned away from certain effects, as they are as @Lazlo says, trash.

    It isn't a crime, that happens. That's the point of balance passes. I don't remember seeing a balance pass on effects in recorded history. There is no way that, with all the changes in combat, numbers put in years ago are still perfect today.

    Lets see what happens.
     
  5. FrostII

    FrostII Avatar

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    Very well stated, @Vladamir Begemot !
    Let's get this conversation started........... ;)
     
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  6. Lazlo

    Lazlo Avatar

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    +Knockback knockback chance bludgeon mw is a pretty terrible one, too. Knockback is a decent skill, but it's decent in spite of the effect, not because of it. Knocking mobs back is counter productive when you're trying to kill them with melee attacks, and it's not like push where you can create some time where a mob is in your melee range but you're not in it's melee range. Maybe there are a couple of super specific situations where you might want to knock a mob back to get it to take lava damage or go off a cliff or something, but 99.9999% of the time it's more harmful than helpful, and even if you were in one of those super specific situations where you actually want to knock something back, you get an extra 4 or 5%...
     
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  7. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    From an enchanting perspective, in almost all cases, health and focus enchants are inferior to getting the strength and int variants, as the stats give health and focus and do a lot more for you.
    These account for four options in the "choice pool" that are almost never wanted.
    The problem is, sometimes people -do- want these for specific builds / edge cases.
    (Like an air shield build that wants to maximize focus, or, if putting 3 enchants on something, str-str-health is sometimes desired. There are many other examples).

    For a game that puts so much emphasis on player choices, I've always found it ironic/wrong that when it comes to something as important as gear, we have this artificial RNG obstacle.
    Basically what this means is, if you get random effects you don't want? You're not going to wear that. You're going to throw it away. You're going to make another, and another. People are worried about 'everyone having the same closet' but that's more or less what is happening anyway, we just have to go through an immense amount of frustration/waste to get there.

    The "Item Durability Effectiveness" enchant is something that nobody ever really wants, the benefit it gives is not really measurable, and about the only good thing about it is that it doesn't use durability so if you get 2 crap options and THAT crap option, its a lesser evil.

    And then we come to the gem enchants ...oh boy ...

    The on-hit weapon procs that do direct damage are "okay". Some people like them, but the amount of damage that they do often isn't worth the extremely high durability cost of application (-40) especially on a nonexceptional weapon that only starts with 100, by the time you've masterworked it, you put one of those on it, with even one other enchant, you're looking at a 20-30 max dura item most of the time, which ...ehh... I know a couple people have experimented with these and swear by them, but the majority of my customers would rather use the durability on more strength or another masterwork.

    "On-hit" damage procs on wands though, are pretty worthless. Unless you're someone who beats things with your wands. Which hey, someone might do! Again - **choice***

    Almost all of the gem specials for jewelry are worthless, (you don't even have them listed?) many of them only augment the questionable weapon enchants and again, the effect is barely measurable. Fortunately these can be avoided by simply not pre-gemming jewelry. The only one I've ever been intentionally asked to 'try for' is the banish undead damage.

    For masterworks, again, players have specific skills that they favor for specific uses and that is going to determine which masterwork effect(s) they want.
    Sadly, because of the sheer number of options getting the one you happen to want is unlikely. Getting more than one, well, prepare to make dozens of attempts.
    You could make an argument in favor of just about anything if YOU wanted it for YOUR build, which is why it is so important that we get the ability to choose.

    The situation we end up in, is that for a particular person, there are going to be a list of effects that they never want, but that doesn't mean its not useful for "someone out there" whose objective isn't min-max. If someone comes to me for a constantan chainmail chest piece for a weapon user, and the only options I get are int and focus, they're not going to wear it, they're going to try again. That chestpiece may be desired by someone of a different build - perhaps an air mage who wants the extra focus, or some sort of hybrid build, etc. but it isn't wanted by the person stood in front of me whose materials we're using. This goes into the reject pile.

    If I'm making wands for myself, and it doesn't get the extra attunement, its junk, and it goes into the reject pile. It doesn't really matter what else is on it.

    So, its not as simple as just saying "lets get rid of this list of effects." I'm sure there are a few we could unilaterally do away with but the variety of materials and choices is what creates diversity - I don't want to see that crippled, let's embrace it but let people make conscious choices about what they want. If someone wants to make inty daggers and play some sort of cloth wearing mage rogue hybrid thing - let them! While "most people" are going to want to go with what's more effective or "better" there's a lot of argument over what that actually means and a lot of different opinions - embrace it - or better yet, choice would allow trial/error/comparison. We use material bonuses to customize, down to the straps and bindings, the bonuses we want...and then we get to the enchant/mw and its a complete crapshoot. It doesn't make sense.

    ***
    I had considered, "what if" the material types dictated the potential options in the enchant/mw pool, to bring the number of choices to a more reasonable, less rng-flighty level.. ? But even that would limit some of the more niche builds who want to try/do something different. Or what if instead of applying to the item directly, mw/enchants made 'runes' or 'kits' that could be applied to the weapon after-the-fact (many games do this) - but that's a pretty substantial overhaul - but it would allow people to cobble together what they want and create a market for those sorts of consumables rather than vendor after vendor filled with combinations of material-and-mw-ench that aren't desirable.
     
  8. Earl Atogrim von Draken

    Earl Atogrim von Draken Avatar

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    I actually fully agree with you.
    But for statistical reasons: I disagree :p
     
  9. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    I've never really understood why Minor is even a part of these, instead of just basing it on the skill of the enchanter. Say change this to scale, from +1 to +6 for stats and +10 to +30 for focus and health, and the durability is 10 until it gets to +3/+15 then goes to 20. You still get the same scale as you do now, without having to apply multiple of the same effects, and it removes "suboptimal" choices from the pick list. Except for stacking, you never WANT to see a minor effect show up.

    I do like the concept I saw in the other thread tho:
    This could make components work similar to gem socketing; you'd only get major Strength when enchanting iron (or heavy), otherwise it would be minor; major Dex with copper (or elven), etc. This makes components even more critical to the magical makeup.
     
  10. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    I don't think that's possible because they wanted to avoid players pushing enemies off edges in order to avoid exploits. :(
     
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  11. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    @kaeshiva I understand what you are saying, anything could be useful in a very specific build.

    What I'm suggesting is that in itself is an issue. If health or focus is ONLY good for one build, when everyone in the game has it, then it needs a balance pass.

    Take an example of the Blades procs. If they are still all exactly the same (+10% according to the chart above), and you were given them all as a choice, I would place money on you choosing the exact same procs, in order, every single time. Meaning it's not actually a choice because a few are superior in almost all (except edge case) situations. So a few of them probably need to be beefed up.

    Imagine if combat had gotten the amount of balance time these have.

    So, which of these need some love so you would consider them in a normal, not edge case or very insistent customer, situation?

    And I just copy pasted the list, you're right jewelry isn't even in it. I don't know if the stats are correct either, that is a long standing thread.

    And thanks ;)
     
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  12. Cordelayne

    Cordelayne Avatar

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  13. Spoon

    Spoon Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    History has proven that what most agree to is posthumously wrong, so on principle I will always disagree with whatever everyone else agrees upon just to be on the safe side.
    :p
     
  14. Anpu

    Anpu Avatar

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    Knockback + Body Slam is an incredible sexy combination. I use it all the time with my new Bludgeon Dude. I can sometimes outright kill things with that combination. I personally don’t find it useless at all.
     
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  15. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    This is good, I've got everyone agreeing that the enhancements are great just by saying everyone agrees they aren't!

    Port should learn from this. :D
     
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  16. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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  17. Spungwa

    Spungwa Avatar

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    So this one does annoy me, not that the MW is bad, and i'm not sure how this works on non leather armour. I only make leather armour.

    So I have a bone chest piece
    Base DA is 6

    I have a MW with +3.3 DA.

    But the amour only lets me have 1.9 more DA, so why am I even able to level DA MW to that level?

    So the Armour says

    Damage Avoidance: 7.9% (6%+1.9%)

    +3.3 Damage Avoidance

    So the 6 is base, and 1.9 (instead of the 3.3) is what i'm getting from the MW.


    Note: I also think those percentage signs are historical, as I don't believe DA is percentage based, but just a number used in the hit/dodge roll, at least from what I saw on a VERY old tech talk.


    Regards
    Spung
     
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  18. Joe Zhudarak

    Joe Zhudarak Avatar

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    Wand and staff

    Masterwork:

    Mandatory:
    Spell Critical Damage: +4% Spell Critical Damage -10 Durability
    Spell Damage: +4% Spell Damage -10 Durability

    Good only as a 3th masterwork:
    Max Focus: +8.0% Focus -10 Durability
    Durability: +30 Durability to Item (Level 98)

    Garbage:
    Focus: +7 Focus -5 Durability
    Major Focus: +17 Focus -10 Durability
    Reagent Use: -7% Basic Magic Reagent Use -10 Durability

    Enchants

    Mandatory
    +% attunement
    + Skill power/damage or +% fire/life
    Major int enchant

    Only good for the 4th enchant
    Minor int enchant
    Major str or dex (situational)

    Garbage
    Minor str And dex
    Major life and Focus
    Minor life and Focus




    I usually try to craft Wands with 2MW and 3 enchants.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
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  19. Mac2

    Mac2 Avatar

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    Kaeshiva pretty much said everything I would have said.
     
  20. jiirc

    jiirc Avatar

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    It’s done that way so you can get multiple enchants of the same type. With the current system you can get strength enchants for example a minor, low strength increase and a major higher strength increase.if you just pick a random number between 1 and 10, for example, then you could end up with what might be the equivalent of two minor strength increases or two major strength increase. So you have to start playing with the numbers to keep it a reasonable range.
     
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