Online Open Role Play Mode – Open PvP and Full Loot

So I've held my tongue on this thread for a while, as I've had nothing useful to say, but I think I get it now. At first, I thought Sir_Tim was using role-play to obscure his interest in Open PvP. However, I now understand that Sir_Tim wants an in between mode. So right in the middle of non-PvP and unrestricted (and unpunished UO-esque) PvP, is Sir_Tim's ORP mode, because, while you can PvP anywhere, there are restrictions in place to stop murderers and thieves from dominating the player base. This kind of mode is idealistic, and would be very difficult to make (UO was a failed attempt at this goal), but I support it nonetheless because I'd rather find a way to play with S. Strider and God than separate people into sliders. If such a mode were done properly, most players would be happy, and we might all be in the same world.

Ok, perhaps this won't solve the slider issue all together, but at least it would offer a world where crafters, adventurers, RPers, and PvPers could coexist.

 

IF I could get a world where everyone was Role Playing, realistically, and griefers didn't exist or didn't last, that would be awesome, and I'd accept the risks. I just don't see how it can be done. IF, however, it shows up, then great. IF it is only one of several play options, then it's fair, and IF I am able to get online multiplayer action, meet new people, new guilds, etc., without having to Role Play or PvP as a mandatory part of being online and meeting new people, then I'm all for it.

I expect the problems to be programming and logistics. Neither of which are solved with my opinion, and neither of which are really my problem, nor my responsibility.

 

this is a good description of the intent of SotA, imho. not that you won't ever see anyone who doesn't play just like you, but that you'll play in a world with a varied and believable society, and you won't have to switch servers to play with a new friend.

 

Glad we agree the reasons someone might know RG and donate again are obvious.

I dont know if we can ever convince the dev team to get rid of the slider. It would be great to have "one mode for all". But from the devicive comments in these forums...

...yes, I was only proposing a point on the slider for those of us that would want an Open Role Play mode. It sounds like there are a fair number of players that dont mind the looting and the murderering so long its done in the spirit of role play.

UO gave a fair try at it, but wasnt harsh enough to the PK'ers. It never really forced them to play out the role of being a murderer. They could generally interact with other players, and the other players were never seen as "accomplises" or they could buy from reputable vendors, and could wonder in the forest past NPCs that; one would think, would normally attack a murderer or theif or bring justic to them in some other way.

I think you captured what I am going for here, however I disagree witgh the word idealistic. It just kind of conjures images of it not being achieveable in this day and age. If it's a option point on a "slider" great, if they ever figured out a way for us all to be happy, even better.

I just will not be happy in any mode where I know that because I opted in, I am at risk of getting attacked and the person beside me is completely opted out and can not relate to any sense of danger I have. It would ruin the immersion for me. Hence my proposal for a mode with its own point on the slider.

 

I guess you have a point there. When you put everyone in an arena-like environment were everyone is all souped up and ready for PvP its all "fair" so cowardly rechod filthy murderers cant just expect to go in and bash an innocent resource gatherer. I can see why people want a "fair fight" and all. Most people when they play a game against other people its kinda about ego and stuff. Most dont want just an easy slaughter and loot gain (Like me for example tehehehe). Its like playing a game of chess but your oppenent removes both their rooks and their queen before the game starts. But hey, im not doing it to be challenged, im doing it to butcher and gain loot! much like a butcher harvests the meat out of a hog.
This brings me to another thought... could you really call reds during the trammel/felucca era of UO murderers??? No one really ever called them murderers they just called them "reds". What is a murderer?? Think hard now... Does a murderer go out to a dueling arena looking for a challenge? Does a murderer wait for his "victim" to be ready, and prepared for a fight? Does a murderer care wether or not your an experienced fighter(in other words, does a murderer care if your a newb?) Murderers are out to kill for their own fulfillment. They arent looking for a "fair fight". So what im really wondering is.... if non-consensual PvP is out, does there still need to be a murderer/criminal system at all? Because honestly what the reds did in felucca was run around looking for players to duel and they all knew the type of player they would find, which is someone who is all souped up for PvP and ready to go at it. No one resource gathered in felucca, so there were no little piggies to smack and gain gold as a "murderer". Why should there be murder counts for basically just dueling? PvP on an equal playing field were everyone is prepared and had a chance to put all their loot in the bank really shouldnt be a crime. To actually have anything remotely resembling a "murderer" there has to be some greif allowed. AND NO! there does not have to be greifing allowed in SOTA so dont start flaming me on trying to force a greif environment into this game. All im saying is that by eliminating greif you have eliminated the murderer role. Not a huge concern for me, im still all for this game and I think it will be great even without this role. Though I would like to at least have a PvM murderer/criminal system NPC's can be greifed 24/7 and they'll never give a damn >=-P
So what im saying is that, "murderering" is most definitely not a consensual act and if we dont have non consensual PvP the only murderer role we can really have is a PvE one. Because when the world eliminates the non consensual PvP the only PvP you have allowed is the kind where everyone is equal, its a very challenging environment(its a challenging environment either way). Its more like going out boxing with an equally matched oppenent. PvPer's are pretty much like Rocky Balboa, they want their strength put to the ultimate test and in this case its more ability to play a game well than actual physical strength, but hey I imagine PvPing an equal oppenent gets pretty challenging.
I can see why people in general dont want murderers in the game even though it is purely fictional. Its tough to get pked when your new or in a vulnerable moment like gathering resources. Tends to make you want to quit. I can tolerate it though! But most others cant. And I understand.

 

Hold on. The idea is that you should be able to do anything you want without worsening the experience for others. Its probably impossible, but finding a world where everyone RPs and no griefers exist is undoubtedly impossible. The ideal part of the system is that some glorious, yet subtle mechanical system needs to work to punish griefers (and PKs/thieves too) to a degree that ganks will be so rare and/or ineffective that non-pvpers won't mind the rare occurrence, without destroying the existence of PvPers, PKs, and thieves all together.

From a demographic perspective, abusive PvP doesn't need to be deleted, just curtailed a bit. The problem with UO was that human nature got the best of us and we all started murdering the less well-off, and there was nothing to stop us. An ideal system would put enough resistance to dissuade the casual murderer (who may only do it for simple pleasure or reward), but not enough to discourage hardcore murderers. Again, the balance is very idealistic, but what it would feel like, in theory, is being a crafter or adventurer, and not worrying about anybody attacking you (that fear when you see a name pop up in a dungeon would be a thing of the past). That's how rare it would be.

 

What can make me accept the chance of being attacked is removing the negative consequences that I might suffer from being defeated in PvP, so that at most I lose a little time rezzing, with no further losses.

It's why I actually put up with playing on a PvP server in WoW in order to play with friends. Not only death penalties are fairly light in WoW to begin with, they are even further reduced when the death happens to PvP, to the point the only actual negative was a corpse run (and, for reference, the only classes that I actually played beyond the starting zones were Paladins and Druids, both of which have an easy time escaping a corpse camp).

If this is added to the game, though, it does mean that I will break immersion for whoever attack me by simply allowing them to kill me, without even fighting back, just to respawn and continue playing as if nothing had happened. Like I often repeat, I will not engage in non-consensual PvP; this includes not fighting back when other players attempt to engage me while I'm not in the mood for PvP.

If being defeated in PvP has any meaningful consequences, though, I will never accept even a slight chance of being attacked by other players against my will; instead, I will leave the game as soon as I learn about the chance.

 

The system would essentually have to make consequences for PKing enough that those who would use it to grief and repeteadly go kill rezz kill rezz kill rezz get stopped to the point where it's not as fun for them to keep griefing people. At least for those who are avoiding PvP areas due to griefers.

 

Yep. That's what I said allright. I have a strong sympathy for players who don't want to play on my terms. I have no illusions that my way is THE way, so while I would like for Portalarium to find some super mode that pleased us all, I get why they are talking about the slider/different modes/shards.

 

Some of the trick here is the lore. They're putting a lot of work into the story and I simply don't expect the PvP portion to be as sandbox as UO was.

Are they setting us up for factions by following some kind of kingdoms at war theme?

Are groups of players encouraged to adopt some kind of twisted virtue path?

If you told me the game was based on Game of Thrones, or Hunger Games, or Harry Potter, (or whatever), I’d have a pretty good idea of what PvP system would make sense.

 

With the Selective Multiplayer as we currently understand it (regardless of 'sliders' and whatnot) are you likely to even SEE the person "next to you" if they are opted out and/or choose to play differently than you? I still believe the whole point of the SM mechanic is to group people who play similarly, whatever that may mean for them at that time.

 

Hold on... I think he understands to an extent, but I think you were right to clarify. I don’t see PK'ers as Griefers in an ORP mode... I see PK'ers as murderers. So yes, the system would make griefing by stealing and murdering extremely difficult.

However, if he is asking that Murderers would be stopped, that is not true. The idea is that IF someone is RPing a murderer, they darn well better be dedicated to their role. Because the game mechanics are coming to help them 'experience' the very REAL consequences society has for murderers. The more they murder, the more mechanics kick in.

Would be kewl if after a couple murders maybe they are forced into the recesses of the world and maybe they even become a part of the game. Areas of the world that you go to for those challenges. Could add an exciting "players-as-content" dynamic.

The intention of ORP would not be so that you "accept the chance of being attacked by removing the negative consequences that you might suffer from being defeated in PvP, so that at most you lose a little time rezzing, with no further losses."

The goal of the proposed ORP is so that anyone who attacks you in a PK fashion, is doing so role playing and not griefing. And if they are just griefing, they better be ready for the game mechanics cause the game is expecting that they want to role play a murderer, and is reacting by making them outcasts and hunted by the game mechanics.

Exactly. By definition, griefers are not griefing to role play. They are, for all intensive purposes, there to ruin someone elses experience.

Instead of blocking off a whole genera of online role play due to this one problem group. The ORP mode would assume the griefer is trying to Role Play and react accordingly by hunting them. Now they can not grief anymore cause they are running from game mechanics. And if the very REAL threats and attacks from society that a murderer faces are not what they planned on doing, its not going to be fun for a griefer.

 

Oh man... Back into this again, huh Tom?

 

So now the question becomes, how to deal with people who switch INTO ORP, then grief, and then switch OUT to FO or SO. What is a good memory time on the mechanics that punish a griefer? What is a good response time?

 

Very good question. But given what Lord British has stated a few times now, even with whatever PvP makes it into the game, outright grief will not be part of it by best efforts in design of the game's combat system.

Hopefully we just won't have to worry about grief at all. Hopefully!

 

Meh, the problem with griefers is that they can use a "whatever works" method, so if the method of griefing involves buying rubber duckies from a seasonal vendor and leaving them in people's mailboxes by the thousands because it causes a glitch and blocks your mail, they'll do it. I too hope there won't be griefers, but...

 

That is why it is up to us to do a very good job in Alpha/Beta to help the team discover and prevent ways of grief, and that is important moving forward as well even after the game goes live. It needs good honest people's support to help prevent such things.

 

Is a mode that allows grief that you willingly choose to join still grief?

 

I am not quite sure I understand your question. My point was, Lord British has said, there will not be a mode which allows grief.

 

What I mean is if I join a mode that allows my house to be burnt down and that does happen is that still grief?