Pledge Expiration - I'm Sorry, But It Has To Be Said

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Nemo Herringwary, Jul 11, 2015.

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  1. Nemo Herringwary

    Nemo Herringwary Avatar

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    So I read the Update #133 this morning, and after the initial excitement of the 10% bonus credit over Summer, the hammer blow of what followed took a moment to sink in; but once it did, I was at first staggered and then disgusted by the realisation of what it meant.

    Let me take a moment though first to say that I deeply admire the community here, and the Development Team themselves. I try and attend every Release Postmortem just for the constructive atmosphere that ensues. I've tried to give feedback in a supportive measure, including critical feedback, because I want the game to succeed and the maturity and inclusiveness to continue.

    And I have never shied away from saying that I believe the funding mechanism is highly divisive and, ultimately likely self defeating from the point of view of developing a wider community; the only person I've been able to bring to Shroud had been on the fence for months because of disquiet with the level of store prices, and only came to the game because Spoon kindly sold me a spare pledge for a discount. Even now, talking about Shroud the only commentary we've had on the game since he played it was "I'm automatically against any game that has a 3 figure or more item in it's store".

    Today however I read that not only are certain pledge levels being phased out, but that the benefits of most of them are being reduced, thus dropping the actual value of those pledges themselves. And I can't hide my feelings any longer; I outright despise who ever it is designing the fundraising. I'm sorry, but I honestly do now. They've turned what was originally a decent feeling of supporting some game designing dreamers into a constant ratcheting up of pressure and addiction that has now reached a point I feel ashamed to have been part of.

    That might sound a bit harsh, but it's the cynicism and greed that's so obvious and depresses me the most; Here's what the current newsletter makes quite clear;

    * The first pledges to be phased out entirely, Patron, Navigator, Developer are all within the funding trough between casual purchaser and over-committed fanatic. It's clearly designed to increase the pressure to move to over-committed as soon as possible, and the 10% increase in funding in turn looks less like generosity and more like increasing the sense or urgency to do so before the current, already hideously expensive deals are taken off the table.

    * The rewards that are being dropped from each pledge tend to be the most desirable; In particular, housing, titles, virtual companions and signed goods.

    Titles I find particularly offensive because it's saying that some people's money isn't as good as those of us who came in early, and those who did arrive early aren't as good as others because they didn't over-commit on an arbitrary demand; "You donated to Patron, but you're not really a Patron, and don't get to publicly claim to be". I was mulling over upgrading myself, and although I personally don't lose out (I'm already above Patron so I will get all the rewards still) this pressure now has just lead me to personally think "ENOUGH!".

    Because frankly anyone who takes a gamble on supporting a game before it launches should be lauded to high heaven... the software industry is notorious for often not living up to it's promises, and to be totally honest here, having worked on an MMO many of you may be familiar with (as content provider) the working conditions are hellish and often contemptuous of the end user behind the scenes as it is; I'm not saying Portalarium thinks that way, but anything which starts asking the user to start paying up front just based on your promises, and can't even treat them with courtesy when they do should be fought to the death. Game development should be about producing something complete, which touches peoples souls, or at least just leaves them satisfied and entertained; most of us pledged on the basis of the dreams Lord British and Origin over the years shared with us. This latest funding plan breaks those dreams on the wheel of grasping finance.

    I'm especially offended by the removal of physical rewards because I personally drew attention to that in the previous Dev Chat, as a set up line for the Devs to talk about their generosity, personal connection with players, and how many backers they had... hint hint, let me help you sell your good qualities. To then see it interpreted so soon after as "Ahah, players like that, let's take it from them to force them to cough up more money quickly" makes me feel deeply ashamed I asked this question. And even more sad when I think they probably didn't even notice me doing it, this horrible change was coming down the pike anyway.

    But to everyone who is upset now, I personally apologise if you watch that Dev Hangout and think I should never have asked about how much signing they have to do. I feel the same way now too. I'm sorry.

    * "Currently, any pledge that includes property receives the home and basement for that pledge"... this sounds generous, but isn't actually true. The Ancestor pledge doesn't receive a basement. That may be a simple error, so I can let that slip. What I can't ignore however is the deliberate removal of all the other homes from the pledges because of the knock on effects on the post launch market.

    Again, if I upgrade I'm already above Patron so it won't affect me, but it's the principle of the matter; and let me illustrate why. One thing I desperately want is a Frigate or Galleon home. Not for the financial element but the roleplay. My only realistic chance of getting one is purchasing from someone who has the home but won't use it. The current changes now mean that there simply won't be as many available as would have been if more people had been tempted to upgrade out of generosity, rather than pressure; Anyone who upgrades now won't get spare houses they can choose instead; and why would I upgrade to a higher pledge, for that matter, if I actually lost the home I might actually want that was at a lower tier? That means less players who want to roleplay nautically will be able too, because there won't be as many ships on the market. And those that are just took a price hike because of the increased rarity, so even if you avoid being bullied into upgrading directly, you're still going to be paying more for the same goals...

    That's a horrible place for a player to feel in. And what's depressing is it's deliberate; Darkstarr in the recent Hangout mentioned they wanted to maintain the rarity of individual items. In general this might be acceptable if, like in Ultima Online, the rarity came from game mechanics (even unintentional ones like server birth rares) which were real world financially blind. Yes, people could cheat or take advantages, but how pleasant did other people feel when they did? Was the success of rarity trading because of, or despite perceived unfairness? Shroud is now going all out for deliberate unfairness, and because of the cloistered community here I don't think they get a sense of just how much anger it's building outside of it's fanbase.

    And inside it too. I can't hide my disgust any more I'm afraid. In the original Ultima, Sacrifice was a virtue, remember? YOU taught us that, Lord British. Now the design is that we are to treat our virtual possessions as elitist and profit making rather than something we can pass on, and help make others feel welcome in our world.

    It should never have been like this. The funding should have been done from small purchases that make people feel more generous too a game that treats them generously, not constant thumbscrewing them to make them feel they have to buy now at high price or forever lose out. For goodness sake then, roll back these changes fast; you aren't even anywhere near Beta even, be honest! Most of the pledges and store items you have been selling aren't even physically in the game, and honestly likely won't be for months after the game launches because you were too focused on getting people's money off them, and less on whether you had the resources to even make those goods! Yet dragging out months of removal of pledge rewards whilst the game is so feature incomplete is going to be a public relations disaster; That the community who are thousands of dollars in don't mind just means you've found a few frogs resistant to extreme boiling, not that lots of frogs want to hop into your saucepan and likes it in there.

    Sadly I linked my Steam account to my Shroud account, so I'm a player now no matter what I choose to do with my Ancestor pledge. And I linked it to help advertise the game again too, sigh. I just feel... used this morning, frankly. And ashamed. And depressed for the future of this game. The single player content is going to have to be staggeringly good at launch to offset the knowledge of such cash-gating off of online possessions. But who is going to risk $45 dollars at launch on a title with years of reputation for nickle and diming their customer base like this?

    Forsaken Virtues indeed. Or, to take another cliché, I love the players, but I hate the game now.
     
  2. E n v y

    E n v y Avatar

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    I'm actually really pleased that they are being phased out. It is the first real sign that we are moving closer to launch. The fact that physical items are starting to phase out shows that they are looking towards final numbers for shipping.

    Bring them to an end with a bang......take advantage of the 10% (I know I will......2 more accounts to upgrade).
     
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  3. Vyrin

    Vyrin Avatar

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    I read you post in its entirety and think there is a lot to consider. However, there is one area where I will take issue. It is because so many who make these kind of arguments don't respect the complexity of the issues surrounding resources required to play any game.

    Remember, at a base level, even for a one-time, fixed-price game, there are some people who will not be able to afford it. EVERY game, except the ones given away, can not be called "financially blind". You may not feel the pressure of paying for a single game, but at many points in my life, I couldn't have afforded to even start to play UO. Furthermore, the vast majority of the world can't either. So let's not pretend that somehow limiting things to one-time pricing is somehow perfectly noble. Even for games that are given away, it requires a platform, and most of the world still probably can't afford that.

    Second problem. I still don't understand why people continually make the assumption that money is the only resource needed to play games. Perhaps a rarer commodity and a more precious resource than money is TIME. How do we talk about notions of fairness when rares in UO are based on RNG drops and one person can play 100 hours a week, while another person can only play 2? Part of the reasons I have avoided MMOs, and only have "crossed-over" with Shroud, is that I don't have the time to play as much as some do and so feel at a real disadvantage. For me money assures that I can have a lot and a house in this game. If it was simply based on a race to acquire them in-game, I probably wouldn't be able to get one. I still feel at a disadvantage with the time I do have and am contributing to Shroud.

    I could go on to talk about other resources required to play games, but please do not bring up the topic of "unfairness" without being much more aware of the complexities of the issue.
     
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  4. Kara Brae

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    +1
     
  5. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    We knew that would happen.
    And we are warned pretty early.
    I can't see the problem here.
    In the end SotA has to be a normal game with the average 45 bucks selling point to survive.
    If SotA isn't able to sell at that value and sell add on goodies through the item store it won't survive at all.
     
  6. Rodriguez

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    Wow...
    Calm down Nemo!
    SotA isnt funded by the government you know? They have find ways to raise money.
    You sound as if Darkstarr will send thugs to your home if you don't cough up more money...
     
  7. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

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    So I admit I'm a little surprised here.. but as someone who doesn't have any money to throw at my pledge all I can really think is.. so what? I look at all the stuff I may well be losing and I'm wondering how the hell not having any of it is going to affect my gameplay in the short or long term. Yeah signed physical goodies are pretty sweet but.. oh more stuff laying around I have to find a place for.. in the end what is it really good for? I don't need that stuff to feel good about myself and I'm not planning on being buried with any of it.

    Ultimately, I didn't pledge for goodies. I pledged to be a part of making SotA a reality. Everything else is just gravy.

    That said.. I am slightly annoyed at the feeling that I could still have a chance at raising my pledge if only they would start accepting assets again. Something I've personally been waiting on for months. Now stuff is being phased out and I may not have the option to do anything but watch it happen.

    Still, I wonder how this effects town owners. I reduced my pledge to get my little holdfast.. was a knight.. now an Ancestor. Yet because the money is still there I still have Dev+ access. It's a little funky.

    So anyway.. I look at this move and current backers (apart from myself) lose nothing. It's only new backers that are effected. So I don't see a big deal here.
     
  8. Sold and gone

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    Exactly. This has happened before. Its not new. We have different Pledge backers with reward differences now. Royal founders have the most rewards, then founders, then benefactors. Its only logical that the benefits keep getting weened off and that the early backers who took the major leap get rewarded for their faith and monetary donations. Its unfortunate that not everyone knew about the kickstart or the very early stages of the process but it is what it is. One could say that many of us early frogs jumped to funding was because of the rares we where going to get. I know I would never have pledged as high as I did if I knew there was not some benefit to it. It may sound harsh but thats the way the world works.
     
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  9. Themo Lock

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    It was always going to happen, we always knew it was going to happen. Just like royal founder had more perks than founder, founder had more perks than benefactor, benefactor will now have more perks than whatever the next one is called. It is a reward for getting on board early and adds value to collectables.
     
  10. Edward Newgate

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    the only thing i would say is that this is bad for players who have a monthly payment, cous i dont know what happen if they dont pay every thing befor this all change
     
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  11. Net

    Net Avatar

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    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?p=51771

    Unless it is really poorly worded I would say that those who will have payment plans will get the rewards.
     
  12. Andrew Rodrick

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    I expected something like this to happen, it was even hinted at in the NBNN interview earlier in the week by Chris and personally I don’t see any issue with it at all.

    It should be expected that the earlier you commit and support a game the more goodies you will receive for taking a higher risk when there is less of a product. With regards to the 10% bonus Portalarium could have just given the 31st of August as a hard cut-off, instead they chose to promote upgrading for added value before it’s too late and again I don’t see any issue with this in fact it’s a win for us customers.

    And finally as already pointed out, this isn’t a new thing we have already went from Royal Founder to Founder to Benefactor with a reduction in rewards, this is simply the start of the next phase prior to launch.

    Personally I feel that anyone with a current pledge should applaud Portalarium for looking after our interests and keeping rare items rare.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2015
  13. Katrina Bekers

    Katrina Bekers Localization Team

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    So very true.

    I knew about SotA well before it was public: at the time, I was working as editor in an MMO online magazine, and we had good info channels.

    Still, didn't want to participate to the kickstarter, like some of my editorial mates were, and I decided to lose the train, so to speak. Finally, I pledged when the kickstarter was well over.

    RF/F have fantastic perks I don't have.

    But it was my choice not to have them, because I joined too late. My fault, my consequences. Who I have to blame if the logic (that Ravicus has explained so concisely) is just sound? Creators rewarded the blind leap of faith. Royal Founders had the most to lose, and their risks were high. I joined when the game was already working 24/7.

    We love to think that balance is a good ratio between risks and rewards. This is the perfect RL condition to see it at work.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2015
  14. Spoon

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    @Nemo Herringwary

    I'm sorry that you and J feel this way.

    But I think you are approaching it from the wrong direction.

    A
    That pledges will be removed when we get closer to release has been stated since they appeared. From someone who is opposed to them this should be positive news, not the other way around.
    This is phase 1 of removing them completely. This is where they take away anything that can interfere or affect release deliveries.
    So no they are not taking them away to force anyone to upgrade, quite the opposite. The first category they are taking away are the physical rewards, this since they must be ordered after summer to be delivered on time. So they cannot remain available.
    The second is the extra lots that came in when Row/Keep/Castle was introduced. This since they effect placement and lot allocation in scenes.
    Both of those have been expected and hinted at several times.

    B
    Compared to other games Port has been really reluctant to give OP effects in the addon store. Almost all are vanity items with comparable items in the game.
    I'd say that the only real exceptions are the tax free stuff, the lot deeds, the prosperity tools and the crystal sword.
    But even those will have comparable stuff in game available for in game currency. (While crystal swords are expendebles.)
    If this was a real cash shop only there for profit then you'd see a lot more stuff like we see in games with such an approach.

    C
    Given that some players are prepared to pay waaaay more than necessary and spend cash on extra clothing, new colored pets, etc etc. means that the threshold for everyone else is dramatically lowered. We have seen several Store and STEAM sales reducing the cost to buy the game to between 20 or 30 several times. (Hence why I could offer you the discount account =). Expect that to be the entry fee without perks once the game is launched.
    This means that poor players (like me in my youth) could actually afford to join and through time & dedication can earn stuff in game. With a different business model that isn't possible, either the entry fee would be much higher and a subscription barrier more than likely. Subscription which is much worse since if you hit a rough spot financially you can't acces stuff you have already earned.
    Or the game would be cheap but to access higher content you'd have to pay more and more fees.
    We are seeing neither here so far.

    D
    People who pays for shortcuts are likely to have less fun, they will not experience the thrills of earning stuff, nor the initial challenge of survival without a crutch.
    I've seen this several times in a lot of games. People who take the shortcuts will usually go through the content faster with less mental reward feedback loop and will usually leave the game much sooner than the rest of us. While those who earn it the hard way and/or those with lots of social interaction created by towns or guilds etc will be the keepers.
    So I expect a lot of stuff getting on the market 3-4 months after the release when some have had their 'quick fix' and start moving on.

    E
    If you fear being left out, try out the guilds and player towns, see if any catch your fancy. A lot of them will have an early mix of many low pledgers and some high pledgers. Where some of the high pledgers will let guildies or townies utilize some of their stuff.
    If you plan on being dedicated at what you find fun, whether that is PvE PvP crafting or whatever, then being good for your town or guild can easily net you favors and access to stuff much more so than pledging higher could.
    Most of my stuff and my player town will be publicly utilized for both my citizens and any pilgrims we can attract. I plan on using my current surplus to pay it forward for all that the gaming community gave me when I had it much tougher than I have now.
    So if you want a place but don't want to pay real money for it check us or others like us out.
     
  15. Beaumaris

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    I don't see it, Nemo. The value of existing pledges, already purchased, just became greater because they will have value that new pledges at the same tier later will not have.
     
  16. KuBaTRiZeS

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    Wow, totally missed that intel...

    I don't think anger is totally justified. They need to make money out of this, and these are good means of putting pressure over the indecisive people. Good to know though; after a long time without playing i'll be back online for r20, and it's better to take this in consideration. If i like what i'm seeing i'll probably upgrade to Navigator.
     
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  17. ThurisazSheol

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    on a subject like this - why don't we quit with the assumptions and theorycrafting, and just ask the devs for clarity, instead?

    they have been fairly transparent up until now, lets give them a chance to continue that trend - transparency was one of the primary reasons i've pledged in the first place.


    @DarkStarr
    why the change?
    did the team run the numbers and realize they didn't have enough resources to do what they wanted?
    are you getting close to a 0 marker, or are you already in the negatives?
    is it just that you are wanting final numbers for shipping?
    the removal of some items, why? was it a ploy from the start to get higher pledges?
     
  18. majoria70

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    You are fine Edward. As long as the pledge is made before the cut off date, even on the date probably. You still get the rewards. It's pledges made after that date that are affected by the change, so no worries, it doesn't have to be paid off, just pledged by that cut off date.:)
     
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  19. majoria70

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    This is not the end of the world really. Kickstarter rewards were always meant to be phased out. This is something we all know about right now but when the game launches most new people won't know or think about it. They'll just play the game with what is available. Nemo talk to people who may work with you on that frigate. Beleive it or not, we are not all alike. Not everyone cares about making a ton of money on every single item they own when they could help someone else. Of course making money on some of them in game is nice, but if I know someone who is sad about something like that I would try to help them. It's going to be ok. We are just here now focusing on things like this, but once we are playing the game for real hopefully we won't be focusing on this and things like this, we'll just be enjoying our game.:)
     
  20. SmokerKGB

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    I don't see the problem... They're just locking things in, so you can't pledge at certain levels, that's all... And if you bought something, then you can't convert to store credit... Nothing to panic about...
     
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