Pledge Expiration - I'm Sorry, But It Has To Be Said

We knew, from the start, that things would get phased out. I think the blow that hit me was way back when they didn't cut off the Founder benefits, they just made us Royal Founders and let Founders have the same things but only different names. But there's no going back, and it's water under the bridge.

In this case, it will make what we currently have more valuable. I think a lot of people have anticipated that, and will continue to do so. If the same items were always available with no cutoff, there wouldn't be a carrot to buy them, nor would anything hold or increase its value.

I've never agreed with their funding strategies, but it is a strategy that a lot of people love, and even encourage. It's one way to fund a game, but fortunately it's not the only way - there are lots of games out there that are successful without this type of funding model.

 

Nemo - I applaud your courage to speak candidly about your feelings. You put a lot of thought in your comments and did an excellent job of not throwing mud but speaking very directly about your concerns. Nicely done. I understand your concerns - as I have many of them as well. I, like you, will not be losing any perks due to this announcement. But I am very concerned about how this will look to those thinking about becoming a member of our community or who have just recently joined. My son (who is an avid MMO player) already calls SotA the "$5000 game" and laughs when I suggest he join up and play / test with us. Friends I have invited to join us just shake their heads and say they are interested in great game mechanics and not 'community events' if they are going to put money in a game.

Will this recent decision make me leave the game? No. But I am sure it will keep others from joining us. Unlike many I did not become a part of this initiative because of some love for 'Ultima'. I never played that game (I tried a couple of times to play all of them but really did not like any of them at all). And quite honestly I had never heard of some Lord British guy. And as much as so many of our community love him and is in complete awe of him, I see him as a business man who is producing a game to make money as any game producer would be doing. And I really do have to agree with you, Nemo, that this was probably not the smartest move to accomplish that goal. But I suppose it all has to do with the target audience that Portalarium is after.

I joined up because I love the opportunity to test and have input. I have been very lucky to be able to have been on the testing side of quite a few extremely well designed and successful games. I enjoy that aspect of gaming. And I greatly enjoy playing those games today now that they have been released. Hopefully this game will be released and be successful as well.

I am saying all this to let you know you are not alone with most of your thinking and I felt that just hitting the 'Like' button on your post was not enough. You put yourself out there and I wanted to tell you I am very impressed with what you did and how you stated your concerns. You have gained my respect today.

 

Nemo, thank you for sharing your thoughts in such a forthright way. I don't know if I agree with everything you said, but I do understand your frustration and concern. The update is a lot to digest and I personally am still reading and rereading it. As others have pointed out though - rewards do have to go away. Pledging can't last forever.

 

I think people have missed my point here; understandable maybe because I wrote it in a single take and then just walked away from the forums. But I'll clarify my point here;

If you pledged below a certain level, or time, or raise your pledge entirely from scratch before the cut off date, you will not get the same benefits the same pledge would have got previously. But you're still being charged the full price. This is negative discrimination, which is something quite different from positive discrimination; who you love is not discriminatory, if done right, but who you put down is.

What should happen is that the pledges remain identical right until the point at which they're closed for all. Never mind the "Royal Founder" etc debate of how they started; personally I wouldn't have a problem if that had been equal right from the start either, but that is what it is now. The problem is that they're specifically disqualifying people in the future, even against the prior less generous Benefactor standards, to make the disparity of wealth more attractive to the Whales now. They're Benefactor Betas.

This isn't theory crafting either; Portalarium have stated time and again their take from the funding graphs is that the spenders at property level and above is their core market. I've tried to point out time and again in return the framing error this includes; they're the ones who set the attractiveness and affordability graphs in the first place, so it's not surprising the resulting spending matches their later conclusions. But there are other models, of which Steam is the most obvious raging success story; of low cost entry and wide consumer base. This latest example of trying to narrow the base and squeeze it even harder really crosses a moral line though; Again to repeat, the pledges that do remain are being deliberately devalued in order to scare people into moving themselves into the Whale category. It's both discriminatory against those who fund after an arbitrary cut off point, and psychologically manipulative to those who do push themselves to get over the safety line of prior financial value before it.

And I've tried, I've really tried to focus on all of the good within this community. But for release after release after release all I ever do is hit the same old monsters again in the same old places; zombies today and trolls maybe tomorrow is all there's been to look forward too recently. Bug hunting has been the only gameplay to be found. Yet in the last two newsletters? The delights of player owned towns, again and again... How excited I should be that they'll be able to move their lots around, be able to design anywhere there's a flat space! Something you have to spend thousands in the store to take part in. And this isn't merely decorative, this is gameplay mechanics on a scale we won't even be able to do with our own houses; remember the "free lot positioning" stretch goal that still isn't funded? You won't be doing that until episode 2, if you're lucky. Maybe the tech for Player Owned Villages will be applicable to moving housing around; but then, why would you take money from the stretch goal funders at the same time? Will you not apply that tech to them "Just because you personally didn't meet that funding goal"? But if you do apply it, why is their Stretch money worth more than those who stretched to mounts or boats, just because tangentially people spent thousands on buying preferable treatment for player owned towns? Honestly, the moral knots this funding model has led the game into are staggering.

I don't blame this community as such; you're in love, as it were. And when you're in love it doesn't matter how many times people say "She's bad for you! Run away!". That doesn't mean they're wrong about the flaws, nor that you're wrong to keep trying to make it work... but thanks to the last newsletter though, I'm not in love any more. Should I leave a negative review on Steam? Half the people there are already saying "Run away!" anyway, and not all of them for ridiculous reasons, so I'm too late to that pity party in the corner of the kitchen, where the scales from the eyes have all fallen off as well...

And part of me still wants to make some of Shroud work... fishing is coming up soon, I could give feedback on that, right? I did spend $5 on that Fishing Rod they discontinued months before I could ever use it, right? Oh fishing is going to be so great! But right now I just expect it to be a "target water, get random fish" basic system. I don't even expect my rod bonus to actually work. And I expect there'll be some sort of "Keep your fish in this magnificent tank!" new $30 addition to the store when Fishing appears. With no promise of normal fish tanks yet. And the special one won't work yet, even if it has the model in game. Which it also might not.

Yes yes yes, pre-alpha and all that. Which brings us right back to how it's such an almighty cheek to say "we still need your funding..." and then to deliberately devalue the pledge worth of people because they didn't meet your psychological spending profile. They just weren't apparently the right kind of alpha backers! Well, I've agonized for for over two years now, since 2013-03-23 about how I could change myself, put more effort in, just say the right words or at least keep spending on expensive chocolates and flowers and that will make this work. And I just can't do it any further. I won't fund any further. I'm not even sure at this point I even want to play further. I'm certainly struggling to want to log into the forums, sorry to say. What Shroud is doing with it's funding is wrong. I don't care that I'm still in an advantaged position and I've not lost out; I want to play with other people who are my friends and equals, I don't want to be a Lord over them. A dysfunctional relationship isn't a real relationship at all.

PUT THOSE PLEDGES BACK TO THEIR FULL CONTENT AS PREVIOUSLY, UNTIL THEY'RE ACTUALLY DISCONTINUED.

 

They ARE discontinued.

 

Then don't. I'll not bother commenting on the rest of your post. Your opinions are yours and you're free to express them.. but this quote is just.. whack. You define your relationship with other players yourself. Having different pledge levels or variations of pledge levels doesn't mean squat. To suggest that changes in pledge benefits somehow means you can't consider other players equals is ludicrous. You decide whether you consider others your friends and equals.. not pledges.

 

I'm happy with the announcement and glad that some pledges are being phased out. Besides, they've given a nice 2 month warning. That's plenty of time.

 

This isn't what it's all about if I may say so Nemo. No one is totally in love with the game at the moment since its not a game yet of course, but you know that. Why do you torture yourself over the way things are done? Yes we kickstarted a game and yes it is taking time, and we do not have a clue of what the game will totally look like when it is done, no matter what anyone says. So many pieces to the puzzle are missing and yes I know you know that also. And why have you agonized for over 2 years? Stop that. As in many things we all took a risk and for some it is not going exactly to the way they might think it should or could be going, well that is fine. I am not saying you don't have wonderful ideas for how it should really be, but don't we all think that sometimes. Just a thought sit back and fasten your seatbelt and stay with us. None of us has a clue how this will turn out at this point even though sometimes we may think we do. Another thought, don't try to figure it all out relax and don't make yourself crazy. Let other people stand with you on this journey. Take a breath and try please to trust that it will work out, or at least it will go the way it will go and enjoy your moments in spite of how it goes. So just thoughts. I'm not trying to argue or make you wrong. I am just talking to you ok. Please be well.

 

Nemo, if you want to leave, do so. Without looking for excuses. Nobody holds any bad blood for righteous opinions.

But don't pretend you're whistleblowing. SotA is your ex now, and the bitterness against it won't help anyone, much less yourself.

Especially when peppered with such COLOSSAL amount of misinformation.

I don't want to comment the rest of the post, but one thing irked me beyond any measurable reason: the comparison with Steam.

Steam had its (deserved) vast success for its business model far, far, FAR after the company that developed it had other, immensely successful releases. It was built on an already monumentally solid foundation.

And they worked from there:

8/96: Valve founded by an inordinately rich ex-Microsoft manager (comparable with Richard)
11/98: Half Life released. One of the most acclaimed videogame hits of all time, built on the Quake engine
4/99: Team Fortress released. Another insanely popular title, built on top of others' tech (it was a Quake mod!)
11/99: HL: Opposing Forces released
11/00: Counter-Strike released. Yet another title everyone and his mom purchased in droves (developed with Gearbox Software, already established, and on top of HL)
6/01: HL: Blue Shift released
5/03: Day of Defeat released
9/03: Steam released <- at this very point, Valve and gaben were already swimming in huge pools of cash. You compare it with Portalarium NOW?
3/04: CS: Condition Zero released
11/04: Half Life 2 released
6/06: HL2 Episode 1 released
10/07: HL2 Episode 2 released
10/07: Team Fortress 2 released
11/07: Portal released. Titanic success, again (developed by an grad student...)
11/08: Left 4 Dead released
11/09: Left 4 Dead 2 released
4/11: Portal 2 released
8/12: CS: Global Offensive released
7/13: DOTA2 released. How you call a MOBA with a world tournament having 10M$ as total prize pool? (Again, a WCIII mod!)

Are you really comparing Steam business model after ten years of outwordly success (75M accounts) and sales (no figures can be published, but they're basically inhuman and mostly keep the PC as a viable gaming platform for developers), with a game that's not even already properly released?

With a straight face?

 

A few suggestions Nemo Herringwary if you want to enter into a serious discussion about this topic. Until then, your ideas will not be received well.

1) The way you use terms like unfair and immoral is completely nebulous and doesn't respect the complexity of making these assertions. Furthermore, Portalarium's business model is hard to justify as either unless you give more sophisticated reasons as to why. Based on what you've said, they are not unfair or immoral. You are free to disagree but you have to stop using this kind of language.
2) Stop insulting the player community as "whales" and blinded by love. Also, as in regards to POT's. Are you really surprised people would not listen to your arguments?
3) Throwing in all sorts of highly suspect hypotheticals, like around fishing, is just bad argumentation and makes it sound like a rant.

I've seen the community respond to thoughtful, non-hostile critique many times. You are trying to argue for a different business model. If you can do so with burdening it under the muck of these problems, you might actually start a constructive discussion. But because of what I've said, please don't blame others if it's not received well.

 

I am on the same roller coaster. My feelings about the game, the mechanics, and etc. have been all over the place since I joined. I have decided to stick it out and make the best of it without losing hope for a game that suits my fancy in the end. If you decide not to stick it out, then let me be the first to ask: Can I have your stuff?

 

This comment is absolutely ridiculous. Anyone who already has the items/pledges will be able to keep them. You are being given a 6 week advance warning of such items expiring. If you want to raise your pledge, do it. If you don't, then don't.

You've obviously never actually been discriminated against.

 

I can't believe sometimes how much money people spend on this game. Myself included. It is insane when compared to just about any other game.

But that doesn't reflect greed or cynical marketing prowess on the part of the devs. That's players being so attracted by the combination of promise and actual content that they pony up huge sums in pre-alpha. It is a sign of faith, and progress.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head with that statement. And I would go even further and say 'Pledging is what should be discontinued and not items within a pledge.' After all, Kickstarter was completed some time ago. Maybe it's time to remove the Pledging Concept and start having price points for the Episodes. You want to play Episode 1 - here is the price and here is what you get. You want to add Episode 2? Then here is the price and here is what you get. You want more 'stuff' when you play? Here is the Add-on Store and what is available. You want to add more money to make the game even better? Here are the Stretch Goals that will allow you to do just that.

Maybe it's time to pick a date or an event and stop the Pledging Tiers completely.

Just a suggestion.....

 

I understand Nemo's disappointment but don't share it. I looked at my $45 as a donation with no promises or expectations. This method of game development funding is in it's infancy and there is a lot of learning with this process. We owe the development team some respect for the time they put on this effort. I suspect that funding decisions are very difficult to deal with even from the development management point of view.
Happy Trails

 

Those who pledged early took a greater risk. There was much less actual game to see, and far less confidence that it would ever be finished. With time, that risk has diminished. It is reasonable that the pledge rewards should also diminish.

 

Holy moly, good grief, and all that. That post was highly entertaining, very well thought out, and true. So true it's painful.

I read it aloud and my husband was cheering and laughing in agreement. He's stopped logging in the forums regularly long ago. All his friends won't fund the game, for the exact reasons you outline. My grown sons and daughter won't either, for the same reasons - and they literally grew up on Ultima Online, we'd all play the game together - it was part of our homeschooling to discover economy, earning a living, buying a house, and all the rest. No seriously. And I met my current husband in UO. So I have had hugely high hopes for this new game.

I've had hope since I backed the game, and haven't lost that hope. After the Royal Founder fiasco, the writing was clearly on the wall back then. It's only showing its ugly head more now. Once funding models are set, there's really no changing it. You wind up with a snarling, angry mob otherwise. Those bloated whales. They are now controlling the show.

I'll still play the game once it's released, because I have a tax free lot and account. The question will be: for how long?

It's not my intent to take down the reputation of the game. But some of us need to speak out over our concerns that the game will succeed - we have a stake in it and we want it to succeed. When we see these decisions made, it's painful because we believe it won't succeed.

What you described sounds like a nail in the coffin. Can it be turned around? I really don't know.

But we have said to each other many times, "Forsaken Virtues indeed."

 

I had to laugh because this is what I saw happen in UO all the time, when people were so upset they left the game. Can I have your stuff?

But seriously, posts of this nature, and all the others insulting Nemo are proving him right (unfortunately).

I mean, people are essentially saying, "Don't let the door hit you in the butt on your way out." And I can truly understand that attitude. There's no problem with that attitude or the people who want naysayers to leave.

Where the problem exists: if someone that's been invested and committed to the game leaves, how many more out there are like him? Who don't post? Who left the forums long ago? And who will never invest more? And will never play the game precisely for the reasons Nemo outlined?

I mean, yes there is a community here that supports the game. It's a niche market and community. If the game succeeds for them, that's really great!

But I think the point is: it's not succeeding for a lot of people, and possibly too many people. And the game, if its reputation goes down, you won't get more funding for the future. So we all have a stake in the game, even the naysayers who invested.

 

I'd like to address your concerns about the cut off date. It may not make anything better for you, but I think this needs clarification because what you say about it is not entirely accurate:

1. This appears to be the *first expiration event* based on what is said here in the update:

"Additionally, as we enter the last half of 2015, and major milestones such as Alpha and Beta are looming closer on the horizon, we will be announcing a series of expiration events regarding pledges, rewards, and related services. The first expiration event coincides with the end of our 10% Summer Bonus promotion at Midnight CST, August 31, 2015."

---> It seems pretty clear that there will be *more* expirations coming as well as Alpha and Beta. That seems like good news to me! We want the game released right? So winding down on pledge levels and pledge rewards just seems logical. The community as a whole can't have it both ways. I have seen PLENTY of people making all kinds of angry comments along the lines of *Release the game already!" I've seen slander and personal attacks against RG. I've seen people claiming this game is a rip-off and will never be released. Now that the game is moving toward the final stretch, ie, Alpha/Beta, it's time to phase out more pledges levels and what comes with the pledges.

I cannot and will not support a *damned if you do and damned if you don't* scenario where Portalarium has been dinged by others all over these forums for not releasing the game fast enough and now being dinged by you because they're winding things down with regard to pledges as a result of *ALPHA AND BETA LOOMING CLOSER*. I will repeat - we can't have it both ways.

2. Signed Physical Goods (Patron pledge and above) - "All pledges at or above Patron level prior to August 31, 2015 will continue to receive all of the signed physical goods at or below their pledge level as they upgrade."

---> This makes sense to me. There are a LOT of physical goods to sign and distribute. But besides that, I suspect the intention is to get a final count of what they need to actually ship out to backers all over the world. Yikes! Logistically, that's a huge undertaking. We have been given well over a month to decide if we want to upgrade to a higher level in order to receive more signed physical goods. I believe that is fair.

3. Home and Basement Stacking (Ancestor pledge and above) - This is my big takeaway about this part of the update: "All pledges at or above Ancestor level prior to August 31, 2015 will continue to receive all the homes and basements included at or below their pledge level as they upgrade."

---> If you pledged to Ancestor -or- if you raise up to Ancestor, you will continue to receive home and basement stacking if you upgrade further. This won't be the case for new pledges after 8/31. Once again this seems more than fair.

---> Bottom line - I could go on but I won't. It comes down to a matter of options and perceptions. Is the cup half full or half empty? Is the need to reduce pledges *Forsaken Virtues* as you seem to believe -or- is it something we should be happy about because Alpha and Beta are fast approaching?

For me, what is being done here with pledges is not only a good thing, it is a NECESSARY thing. Not because I am so blindly in love with SotA that I have lost my ability to reason, but because logic itself dictates that the whole pledge system has to be dismantled as we move closer to release.

***Edit: PS Nemo - I am neither wealthy nor a whale. I'm just a fat old broad who is approaching retirement who decided to use some of the money I never spent on vacations or clothes or cars to invest in this game. Virtual loot in a damn game does not define me! It does NOT make me any better than anyone else in the game or give me power to lord it over others!

 

Where?