PVP Full Loot and the PKing experience!

I thought -- correct me if I'm wrong -- that UO became a major disappointment to PvP players after the introduction of Trammel? "Trammel killed UO" has been a not-uncommon refrain heard 'round these forums...that doesn't seem like the rallying cry of a happy PvP player base.

Perhaps it is possible that the longevity of an MMO is tied to more than the openness of its PvP?

EDIT: I'll note, too, that EVE and Lineage 2 both came out in 2003 (Lineage 2 reached North America in 2004), whereas WoW came out in 2004...and so is very nearly as long-lived as the others. And WoW has...what? Twelve times the player base of EVE despite its steep restrictions on PvP?

 

It's because a well rounded game is not focused on pvpers.
If the game itself is appealing for EVERYONE, then people will come and go, therefor pvpers will come and go.

 

The reverse is also true.

How to turn PvP into PvE could we?



No, seriously,

I think your perspective is interesting.

CAUTION: It should not denature the PvP.

 

I played UO frim beta to second age idk where trammel fits in but i loved every minute except when i got ganked in that dingeon with the ogre lord by my own guild

 

I think we have learned a lot from looking back at UO history. Both sides (Pre and Post Trammel) are afraid to admit any flaws in their favorite system in hopes that SotA will not be shifted to an extreme. I think EA took a cruel oppressive world and made it extremely easy and then made housing and land easily accessible. I think they did all this with no regards to how fun the game would be, but because they knew people would keep paying a monthly fee to keep that house.

I think in SotA some compromising could have been done to make the game better if words like "NEVER" had not been struck into the deal. I personally do not want a cruel oppressive world, but will argue on it's behalf just to gain any leverage we can possibly get against a group of players who will NEVER consent to PvP no matter how much fun the developers make it. Even if it becomes considered the greatest game play of all time, they will refuse to ever engage and argue that it has received too much attention and want it destroyed.

 

Of what concern is it that a particular subset of the SotA player base will never consent to engage in PvP, though? That they lobby against a particular game type and in so doing risk ruining the game for others?

Doesn't lobbying for the opposite game type, in a manner that is possessed of an identical unwillingness to compromise, do the same thing? Is that not simply lobbying against another particular game type and risking ruining the game for another set of others?

How is meeting that intransigence and unwillingness to budge with more of the same likely to result in any kind of productive outcome?

 

There is nothing productive about any of the uncompromising arguing. I wouldn't even be arguing if I didn't think there was a good chance that the economy would favor PvE over PvP. The PvE players on the most part do not want to see the PvP players ever get anything that they cant have. A lot of them don't want to see the PvP players get anything at all and would insist that even though they detest PvP; the reward for doing it is in and of itself the joy of PvP and the great feeling you get knowing you have been allowed to participate.

If I could divide up development, I would spend 70% on the Single player portion of the game, 5% for online PvE, and 25% for PvP because nothing else in the game has covered it. Single player would be the foundation. (Not because I think I'm even close to being a developer but to show how I'm thinking).

A lot of the Open world PvE people would have 100% of the game revolve around them alone.

 

Its a unfair premise before the argument starts. Some of the pvers want pvp non existant uet if it is want all the pvp goodies without pvping and wont stop until pvp is completely ruined yet you dont see pvpers clamoring over pve wanting it castrated

 

Should it work the other way 'round? If so, why?

The reverse is also true.

The reverse is also true.

To be fair, a number of PvP proponents assert this to be the case as well, that they desire nothing so much as the thrill/risk/uncertainty of an open PvP system...which, one would reasonably conclude, is the main reward of such a system.

Why does there need to be additional and exclusive economic gain for PvPers on top of that? As a reward for risk? Couldn't it also reasonably be argued that analogous rewards should be available to PvEers who invest considerable TIME into a particular tradecraft?

I agree with the single-player part. (But then, I would just as soon wish for a wholly single-player SotA with no multiplayer.)

This is also true of many open PvP proponents.

 

You might not have seen that. Keep in mind, though, that for many PvEers, loose/no restrictions on PvP would be seen as ruining/castrating PvE gameplay...and there are a number of open PvP proponents.

 

WoW's restrictions on PvP don't bother me. It's just they never made PvP "content" work:
1) The open world objectives were never very interesting
2) It's all faction based so there's just nothing at all for a guild or smaller group to feel important (and thus nearly all guilds are built around 10 and 25 man raiding)

Note that l2 doesn't have player looting. (Only reds drop).

 

Why would pvp restrictions or lack of effect pve when they can do anything they want unrestricted via other game modes and that thingy in the background that you can manipulate to determine who is going to be seen by yu ? I dont understand their argument when they can completely avoid pvp in multiple ways. It just seems like a double standard where pvpers dare not push their agenda on to pvers but pvers can completely gut pvp and want more

 

If all OPO brought to the game was PvP you would have ground to stand on. OPO is more than just PvP.

 

Yes, I believe all facets of playstyle and profession in the ONLINE game should have different rewards to make the economy work interdependently. Everyone should rely on everyone once they step through the online world. It's the uncompromising argument about "Never" allowing special rewards that is going to create a loner mentality that may as well be in a single player offline game.

 

This is the first time I ever heard of this game. I was searching "next full loot mmo"

If this game plays like UO. I am in... if not I will wait for another one that does.

 

Trammel killed UO but not strictly because PVP was restricted. But, because anyone (even those interested in PVP) could now just go to Trammel where they can climb to the top of the mountain by walking up the road instead of the steep climb that used to be the only way up. So, the climb became a very dull adventure and once you got where you want... and looked to the other (PVP/Felluca) side of the mountain, it was strictly for both the most well-equipped, grouped up and skilled players and not a single other type of player. If you were lacking in one of the three factors, people would probably be like, nah... I need a guild first, nah... I need this, I need that.

In an another example, maybe I could try to explain it as such: Before trammel the zebra, giraffe, hyena, tiger and lion lived in the same wilderness. After trammel the zebra and giraffe isolated themselves from the rest, even lions and tigers sometimes fed on grass when they weren't ready to encounter each other and the hyenas (roleplayers?) simply went extinct. I don't know if I could explain well.

(Of course, some third party programs also spoiled the fun by increasingly removing the skill factor and automating everything.)

So, that being said if there is going to be seperate worlds for Pure PVP/Pure PVM/PVM+PVE, there should be no connection of any kind between them in any way in order not to ruin the experience for the other player.

 

Trammel didnt kill UO for the PvP players in felucca. PvP players had to fight battle ready players after trammel and some that had a hard time doing that claim that trammel killed UO cause there was few easy prays left (moved to trammel).

UO assist was what the vast majority of PvP players used on Europe shard all the way up Age of Shadows. Any other third party program got you banned.

Age of Shadows february 2003 killed felucca UO with it's item PvP and insurance, not trammel.

UO Renaissance with it's consensual PvP also had a way more balanced and skill demanding PvP then pre-trammel had. A mage was not the dominating PvP character (was that pre-trammel) during UO Renaissance.

 

Yeah. But, a lot of people I know feel that the fun of being bullied as an easy prey and learning to stand on their own feet after being murdered numerous times was the most fun part and one that makes them nostalgic. Instead of combat strictly between the battle ready (that was a different kind of fun experience). Maybe "kill" is too strong a word to use. But, it did take a huge portion of the fun away. Although, there are others that think the rough ride wasn't fun.

 

Ok, I gotta call you out on this one, PrimeRib.
"Your point 2)" I had a guild in WoW, in fact mostly a small subset OF my guild, which PvP'd as a group, and through application of tactics, communication, and skill, we caused a MASSIVE effect on the game's PvP environment. There were between three and six of us on any given day, occasionally more people from the guild would join, but most days just the core members of the team. We had fun, we challenged the enemy, and while we did sometimes get wiped out, MOST of our efforts were very successful.

And we were extremely proud of ourselves. It was enough to keep everyone logging in to PvP every day, despite the fact that when we started out, we thought of PvP as an inconvenience to our PvE play.

 

I really fail to see the logic behind wanting this to be a pure PVE game.

At the end of all 5 episodes of this game series what is to be done once you kill every mob and earn "all teh uber loot".

It makes absolutely no sense that people would be this afraid to die in a world where they won't stay dead.

If the devs of SOTA were really attempting something different , i seriously don't think they'd stick to the same tired, old formula present in almost EVERY other mmo out there....