Starr Long Discusses Chaotic Aspects of SOTA Combat

yeah and they jumped off a bridge. FYI, If everybody jumps off of a bridge it doesn't mean you should.

 

No need to reinvent the wheel

 

Not exactly. What I don't like are spells like invisibility, and heal coming up randomly. I don't think being able to lock a skill is a good solution to that either. I believe a person should be able to use a skill or cast a spell when it comes to mind. I think that's what most people's problem with this system is.

I don't mind so much when it comes to weapon combat, because there is a lot of opportunity and variables to combat, but I don't think it makes sense if a person is thinking about Fireball, gust of wind, strength spell, and summon elemental when they really need to turn invisible and disappear from sight. A hybrid system is needed.

 

First off, remember that outside of combat will not use this system. Invisibility and Heal will be able to cast before or after combat at will. Should you be able to cast invisibility at all during combat? I think at least it should be hard. Healing can have the same argument as healing someone in the heat of battle can be difficult. Medics don't rush in and bandage people in the middle of combat: they drag them off to safety and do it there.

Add to that by choosing the skills that allow you to pin cards, you are making a character that is trained to be able to do these difficult things in difficult situations.

I understand why traditional competitive-style gaming makes this unpopular, but it can be rationalized.

 

It depends. Is a heal something you're supposed to be able to spam or is it meant to be a rare proc? If we have a holy trinity type game where someone suppose to spam heals and the game is tune around this, then something has to change. Make the game checks if your target is friendly and heal is auto-attack.

Is invisibility something you're supposed to be able to use all the time? Or is it supposed to be a skill you can use really rarely use. It's a get out of jail free card you shouldn't get all the time.

I don't know how the game is built. Or how things are tuned. But the game doesn't have to be about spamming skills at all. There are a lot of ways to play tactically which don't involve hitting skills all the time.

There's a lot I don't like about the card system. But being able to hit a specific skill isn't necessarily one of them. I can't spam skills, my opponent can't spam skills...this just means the fight isn't about spamming skills.

 

I think a lot of this will rest on the frequency that "combos" come up and if they are parallel-linked to you opponent - that is to say if you get a combo in your deck, it's likely that your opponent also has a combo

If combat feels "natural", just by the sheer rapid appearance of cards that it does not matter that they are dynamically generated

 

I could run from my opponent in combat and if they aren't close behind me I should be able to run behind a tree and then cast invisibility and nobody would know that I am still in the area. If somebody is following me they might run past where i turned invisible. Yes invisibility should be able to be used in combat why shouldn't it be? If I know how to cast a spell why should they say OH wait you're in combat so that spell doesn't work now. Combat is exactly when you need invisibility. Invisibility is useless when there is nobody around that you need to hide from.

Same with teleport. What if somebody creates an explosion that obscures the vision of the people on the opposite side of the explosion giving me an opportunity to teleport behind them without them expecting it. It would be a shame if I could come up with a great plan like that but cannot execute it because we are not allowed to cast those spells in the middle of combat (especially if I can't cast it because it isn't showing up on my skill bar at that time).

 

I would consider these situations leaving combat. If you are running to escape you don't just poof a spell and vanish. You run to abandon combat then cast your spell.

In NWN, you had precision controls and mechanics, but based on D&D rules. Spells had casting times and failure results. However, you would never cast a spell like that in combat. While you were casting it you would get shot down since you would be flat-footing and everyone would have an easy time hitting you. If you took certain Feats or upped certain skills these could lower failures and speed up casting. This helped you be able to pull off those feats. Or you ran, lost your opponent and cast them when you were safe.

In the SOTA system you have the same affect. You either have to wait for your stacked deck to yield results (which I argue is less random than people think) or pick the skills that allow you to pin that result. Your other option is to run, get out of combat and cast it as a non-combat action.

Same rationale and the same results; just a different mechanics. As I said I still see it as a red herring.

We have to see the system, but my problem is not the mechanics: its how they handle the UI.

 

I can see why a lot of people would hate a more chaotic system, as it rewards those who are tactically able to think on their feet and adapt, rather than just the hordes of monkeys who just chase the latest and greatest combo/build created by someone else.

It could also lessen the need for marked nerf cycles as well, because the "monkey horde" will not be able to simply copy the optimum playstyle. Ie, even the very best decks that the talented in the community will inevitably create, will become gimped when placed in the hands people who are unable to apply them with the same success.

Great ideas therefore won't automatically dominate the entire gamesphere and thus require developer intervention (game balancing). I cant wait to try this new system.

 

Not to split hairs with you, Umbrae, but sometimes that's EXACTLY what we have to do. One of the worst things you can do with a trauma victim is move them roughly. The bouncing and yanking tears additional tissue, compounding an already life threatening wound with extra damage and blood loss. Would I *LIKE* to have a safe environment to do medical work in, absolutely. Does every medic get that with every case, not so much. Military field medics frequently have to try to do combat stabilization on the ground in the middle of the firefight, taking whatever cover they can, and only get to move the body once A) the patient is stabilized, and B) a safe evac can be arranged.

 

Yes, you are splitting hairs.

To put it another way:

I am an untrained medic and have not tools nor is the environment suited. I would need to either risk moving the patient or clear the area of hostiles to perform the task.

You are a trained medic, and have pinned the proper tool in your deck. Therefore you are able to make that stabilizing procedure on the patient in the unsuited environment because of that.

Does that better exercise the point I am trying to make?

 

Well, that depends. Does this trained medic actually get his tool dealt to him by the system? If not, then will I function in any way better than the untrained medic? Spoiler alert, if you have a bleeding gut wound, you want a TRAINED medic.

 

By tools in this case I mean a healing spell. There might be other skills related to healing, but you have to abstract this and see the deck and delivery of card as the stress of the encounter. My point is that this type of chaos and reaction to it is what the system is supposed to represent and there is little difference to the healing card not being drawn as trying to heal and failing because you rolled a 1 or failed a concentration check.

We can get into the weeds and compare all actions in video games to actions in real life, but I don't think that is a useful discussion. I am just saying the RPG element is there which is different than the spamming that would happen in an action game.

 

I hear much in this thread about magic. I'm fine with the Chaos of Randomness in this regard, because the magic in Ultima has always been tied to the Ether. Ether being, I would imagine weather, planetary positions or somehow a non constant, I believe in Chaos the way it will be presented more fully matches those energies.

But, putting the issues of pure magic aside, How and what do you imagine the game play of a warrior to be like within the coming Chaos?
I have heard that it will be very difficult to play any warrior that has no magic in his pocket.

~TL~

 

The only way this system would work was if the randomness was kept to a minimum say high powered abilities and yu choose say five to cycle no more than two hotkeys thru otherwise its just too much chaos. That is the only way ill participate and is far as id compromise

 

I think my question stands unanswered, @Umbrae. Spell, tool, syringe of medication, ancient Chinese secret technique, trained surgery ferret, it doesn't matter what my method of healing is, the question is, do I get access to TRY it when it's appropriate to do so. I have seen the argument for this system "representing the chaos of the situation", and in fact that is how this thread got back on top of the forum again, someone made a very pointed response to that concept.

Now, IF the use of my ability resulted in a pure success 100% of the time (barring someone having a ability to block me, so now we are basically playing a TCG), you could say that the random card deal was representing combat. Last I heard, though, the abilities themselves will STILL have varied random elements. So the card deal will represent my ability to roll yet ANOTHER die, hoping that nobody interrupts me, and that I get a good result, and while we are at it, I'm hoping to draw a good followup ability since nothing is gonna be a one shot win.

I've already said before and now again that I'm gonna TRY it just like everyone else, I don't get why people need to dress it up and glorify it. Maybe it will be epic and revolutionize online gaming. Maybe it will SUCK. Nobody on these forums knows for certain.

 

@MalakBrightpalm - Thats goes back to my statement about precision. RPGs tend to have more abstracted actions. In D&D, you may say you want to heal your friends, but those actions are proxied through the DM. In SOTA your actions are proxied through the combat system. So "you" may want to perform and action, but your character may not be able too. This just takes it a step further and say your character didn't have the skill to think of that action. In the end, you can train your character to pin skills and ensure the actions you want are always available.

I understand the concerns: I just see the system as a rational alternative to traditional RPG systems.

 

If you cast fireballs in a game then you have magic skills and abilities.

Tell me why you shouldnt be able to cast heal or invisibility during battle if you have magic abilities and skills? Is fireball ok but healing not?

Heal added to the complexity and the player skill needed in UO to perform well both in a 1 vs 1 and in teamfights. The ability to cast heal was a major part making UO magic combat the so far most demanding magic combat system ever seen in a MMO, took a year to become very good at it and some never managed it.

But why do i even discuss this when the combat will be random and based on skills the game decide for me to use. As long as developers stick to their card combat system i see no hope for a skill based combat system in SotA. They need to remove all that is random and give the player freedom to choose himself what to do at a certain situation during combat, that is basic when it comes to PvP combat systems.

 

I disagree, but thanks for voicing your opinion! We don't all agree on what is best, but everyone is entitled to be heard.

I look forward to the "randomness" that the combat system is integrating.

 

It's not like it's a completely random system anyway, there will be something that you can control, but some elements will not be available all the time.
I think it'll be interesting to let people decide whether they want more controlled build with some advantages and drawbacks, or with more random elements (maybe higher risk / reward), or something in between. You'll be able to predict the combat with your choices... I see a great potential in what they've planned. Let's try it out.