The PvE/PvP Conundrum

For the people who are worried about crafters check out this thread talking about reforging items. So instead of increasing item repair costs people would eventually have to reforge their items after a certain number of repairs, or those items will lose one of its enchantments or enhancements.

However the reforge process will keep crafters relevant, and it will also let you keep reforging your 1000 elf slayer sword over and over again so you can keep using your favorite items indefinitely (while crafters make full price maybe more on the reforge than making it from scratch). Check it out.

 

To make weapons and armor of course! Which will sell for more than the ore!

 

other Pks! Its really simple if i kill off someone sooner or later they will kill me off!

 

So you are saying people will smelt a weapon to make a weapon?

 

I would often go Robbin Hood , take most loot to town and give it away to newer players ..... Now this Was during . The Glorious Lord (Blue) Dread Lord (Red) Days ... it was for the most part ... Good vs Evil ,,,, Order vs Chaos .. With a hand full of A** Hats that did want to you be miserable.

And that included a lot of smiths that would repair for skill and give away to help look friendly and drum up business .

 

yes ive smelted many weapons and armor, to make something else, mace, or sword. also to build my skill

 

That's personal usage. Just as it is to make a potion to use yourself. You eat the "new car" cost. (The second you drive off the lot you lose value in the car)

This is a self imposed diminished return. The savvy merchant would never do this. Unless the salvage mechanic returned the exact same quantity of resources as required to make the salvaged item. Which if that were true it would be a zero sum gain and not an economic stimulant.

You just changed hands from one person to another and reworked it into a different item. Nothing removed from the economy.

Unless there is a salvage mega thread I missed I only see such an act as throwing money away for the sake of throwing money away. You don't base the economy on the foundation of hoping a player would do this. You base it on the knowledge that the savvy will be savvy.

(training skill is a different story, but still you are eating the cost not stimulating the economy.)

 

So if i sell product to somone they turn around and sell it to somone else but this time its bigger or better or something totally different and the vendor sells it to the player, is it not making money? Im not saying i will roll up on someone and kill them take thier stuff, unless they happen to be a PKr that i know of. I could care less whether that person loses everything. but still i dont understand how it cant be reworked or sold or both and not help the economy? I guess you me and Rusper wont ever come to a even look at that, so its better that we not look at it any more. I think we are at a deadlock on that issue. I think the difference is i wont be a crafter but ill depend on others (players to craft stuff for me) and ill make money off the PKrs, to buy it. So i cant really look at it from a crafter/fighter point of view.

 

What you are saying is you want to break down an item to it's base parts then craft something better? What game does that.

Most games you get less resources than what you need to make the item you destroyed. To make the same item you would need more resources. To make a better item you need a lot more resources.

The savvy merchant would resell that item instead. This does not remove anything from the economy it only trades hands. <-- Not an economic driving factor.

 

one more time then, if you smelt down a weapon and add more ore you get more ingots sot thats like 2 or 3 more if that is what you need, or infusing a weapon with magic either or could be done in alot of the mmorpg' s that i played. Maybe the problem is that all items are equal in price, and that could be the downfall of the economy as well!?

 

You can't argue religious conviction with facts and logic.

 

yeah i dont understand that if i smelt down a piece of armor, and make something out of it, adding it to the other ingots i have, i could have possibly needed the extra ingots to make something else i was working on! To me it seems that all you want to do is argue! Personally i dont care about the economy as much as you seem too.
If i kill off a character i take what i can, i turn around and sell it a vendor, guess what? now i have more money to buy stuff i need. end of story!
So ill just back out of this discussion on economics etc..... since this is a PVP/PVE thread, and go back to what i know better than you think, PVP should be full loot, and if you cant handle that then by all means dont flag yourself PVP! at that point i wont be able to attack you and you wont have to run from me!
Theres a slider you can duck out of the danger if you feel thats what you want to do, to enjoy your game! Ill be in pvp attacking and getting attacked and be just as happy as you are in PVE.

 

That is off topic and more than a good chance of getting this topic locked. We are on to you guys who comment in this way to stir things up and are not going to take the bait.

Open PvP will clearly have an impact on crafting. One of two things is going to happen, the PK will take things or leave things ont he corpse. If things are taken from the Killee then he will need to replace them, if things are left on the Killee and the game finds a way to take those items and get them back into loot tables, well that isn't so great, however the Killee will still need to replace them.

If our targets need to replace or repair their gear due to engagement with PKs, and needs to seek out a service or vendor from another player to do so, what is the issue? How does that impact economy in a bad way?

Captain Jack can tell you how, he imagines, a world filled with bliss! A world filled with crafter characters, and bunnies, butterflies, and two alternate characters per account. Captain Jack can imagine Richard Garriott's original echos of a great game, you can build your character, character, into whatever you wish, he can do anything, he is an avatar. Now I can imagine three of those characters per account, two mules for the main and an endless supply of crafting / gathering entering into the one account, from which one will never actually need to seek out another player's vendor and lose money ever again. My friends, you have much much more to worry about in terms of the economy from THIS, than you ever do PKs who help retire items from it.

 

Is that how it goes? "I want what I want, don't like it don't PvP" Doesn't matter if it's not about PvP.

The economy is the foundation of everything, it can not be ignored and nothing can supersede. So let me give a different example.

You kill someone and loot a mace + 1
He comes back with another mace + 1 only to meet his doom again.

Now you have 2 mace +1's

You salvage 5 ore from each mace giving you 10 ore total. You take those 10 ore and give them to a crafter to make you a mace +2.

Now here is the economy part:

10 ore = mace + 2
7 ore = mace + 1 (7 to craft but yields 5 when salvaged)

If you look at everything as base resource value it's 10 ore vs 14 ore
If you look at it as item value it's 2 mace + 1's vs 1 mace + 2

To avoid getting too deep into econ theory the value of 2 mace + 1's would be more than the mace + 2
If you choose to destroy those two maces that's your choice but a crafter would not as long as there is a demand for the mace + 1. Which there is if someone just lost 2 of them.

Option A: force the salvage of the maces during looting. (Not a good option IMO)
Option B: place a durability hit to gear on death. (On loot would make this PvE vs PvP and that's not what I care about, systems should be ambiguous)


You are more than welcome to look away from the economy but I, and I am sure many others, are very interested in how the economy works. I want balance across the play styles not PvP concentric.

 

The question is not can they but will they.

Me personally, what I would like to see is when you loot someone there is a risk of scuttling the item. Or if you wish to leave the person with their gear you have the option to scuttle some of his gear.

Durability hit on death, certain.
Large durability hit on loot.
Large durability hit on unlooted gear as an option for the killer. (don't like the ransom, don't give them a chance, simply crush their gear)

 

This might be appilcable in the adventures of Captain Jack because he is very careless with stuff he loots! lol, but really, I wouldn't appreciate of having my prizes taken away from me with a chance of destroy or damage on loot... Unless, the person who was killed was wearing a device and was able to arm the device to explode in a number of seconds, like a trap, or the Predator.

From experience PvPing, I only take a few things, always money and maybe one out of every 10 items. So the majority of the items get destroyed anyway, as they are left on the ground for garbage cleanup.

What Captain Jack is in favour of is a system where Vendors are smart enough to identify if the player character trying to sell equpment to them belonged to them or not... This might open the chance to have certain ill-virtue vendors start fencing items to create a black market also.

 

Why would the PVE casuals be reading the PvP forum to use polls therein? I like PvP and I rarely go in myself, because so much of the content revolves around "switch denial".

It's like holding a IQ poll at a Mensa conference, and then drawing the conclusion that the worlds average IQ is 185.

 

Because non PvP players are very interested in how this game will be dealing with PvP.

 

But the c-casual crowd constantly goes to the PvP forums to give their opinion. No idea why, actually. Go look for yourself. There's a swarm of them over there.

 

Months ago I used to care about making my voice heard in the switch/no switch debate as well, so I can't blame them. But then I realized I shouldn't have to, it is not a rational debate, it will never end and it isn't my problem.

Plus, it's more than a little creepy in a "control issue" kinda way. You have all these groups looking forward to playing a game in all sorts of different ways, but one group being totally pissed that everyone is not being forced to play their way... which just happens to be the way with the greatest potential for anti social behavior...