The PvE/PvP Conundrum

This is something we agree on @PrimeRib Not the part about PvP and the economy being basically the same thing, but rather that PvE players get more loot and have a lesser chance of dying (and being looted by monsters), than PvP players.

PvE is more profitable. PvP is where things get busted, and they incur a cost. With the current loot system I think the majority of PvP players will need a second profession in order to make enough money to keep up their repair bills and ransoms. I think PvE players will likely be richer players.

Very few people will be able to make a living doing PvP because ransoming one item isn't likely to pay off unless you kill lots and lots of people, and manage to not get your items wreaked or burn through too many reagents (depending upon your PvP style weapons or magic).

However it doesn't affect the economy on the whole. It's just one piece of it.

 

No. We don't agree on this at all. As with any game, people who are willing to PvP are going to get first crack at anything worth fighting over. Just like people willing to compete in some other aspect of the game will get a shot at that. e.g. if I'm the only one willing and able to craft swords, I could choose to keep them all for myself.

The problem is they simply haven't told us what exists in the game which is worth fighting over and how that resolves.

But a bunch of people fighting over eachother's pants won't drive the economy in any meaningful way. People will just decide this is silly and opt out. Full loot or not, it's still negative sum.

 

You're right we don't agree at all.

See I have no problem just flagging for PvP just because we can. Even if I just play the game normally. I think PvP is the natural state of the game in my opinion. I want the risk of somebody to be able to attack me. I don't need some special motive like attacking a castle.

Again, I don't mind if there are control points, or castle sieges or whatever... all I care about is being able to be flagged for PvP to have the risk there, even if I never initiate combat with another player, and even if I don't get involved in a guild war. I like the risk. Simple as that.

We don't need all that other stuff (although they have already told us there will be control points, guildwars, and special resources in contested areas, and higher yield ore production etc in PvP mode).... Even without that I would still flag for PvP and so would many others!

Remember we only have one game world (one shard). If there's 300,000 players, and only 10% of them are PvP, that means there will be 30,000 PvPers in the world (that's probably the maximum number of players in an old UO shard alone). We will not have a problem getting people to PvP.

 

Isaiah seems to be the last sane man left on these forums.
What is your opinion on the current state of the game, Isaiah? Can we still hope for a good open world PvP game or are we getting another WoW? I'm asking because I'm not following the latest news and updates anymore and would like to know the opinion of someone who has the same mindset as I.

 

This is where the concept of "why do we <insert here>"

Why do we PvP? If it was simply rock'em sock'em robots people will get bored.
Why do we PvE? If it was simply whack a mole people would get bored.
Why do we craft? If it was simply legos I'd get bored at least. (we know there are some out there that can play legos for years and never get bored)

The economy is a motivator. Control over the economy can be tied to very subtle aspects of any of these categories.

Best resources in the game only available in full PvP areas. PvP concentric economy.
Repeatable quest that gives large amounts of the best resources that are not available anywhere else in game. PvE concentric economy.
Crafting would have dominance of the economy if resources were obtainable effortlessly. Allow gathering of resources from the safety of your house, quickly, and watch inflation sky rocket.

There are many aspects of the game they can skew the balance of the economy to or away from any play style. We don't need to know the finer details of in game economic or the controls in place to know that if all you have to do is purchase an item from the SotA store and pull unlimited resources from it the economy is toast.

 

LOL. Well I'm glad to say that I feel good, and sane today. FYI, this was not always the case.

The current state of the game WOW tough question... This is only my opinion:

The state of the game is still early. A lot can change. I like the fact they are not rushing for an October 2014 release date, because that stressed me out thinking how in the hell will they fix everything by then.

• Visuals are looking better and better. I like them now, although I would have played the concept version of the game. However with the addition of better hair and player customization, I think we will have a visually immersive world as well as story.
• House Size--I'm actually a little concerned about the size of houses... will villages be filled with a bunch of 4 story lot houses, and knight's keeps??? -- There might have to be some kind of incentive based reason for players to choose buildings for style rather than square footage. Perhaps storage containers could remain fixed regardless of house size. Although I would still want the Knight's house to hold more storage containers. I don't know how they will mitigate this. Although not everybody will own a knight's house, but citizens have 4 story lot homes as part of the pledge tier. It would be nice if there was a way to get people to feel comfortable in the look of their home (druid's house, or wizard's tower), and not just want to pick the tall 4 story lot house. Who knows this might work itself out.
• Ever Increasing item repair cost--Repair cost increase solutions I think a reforge or something similar to this would be more effective, and perhaps change the looting system so that you can loot lower teir gear faster than the highest quality items. I think that will give an incentive for people to use their best items in combat. So the increasing item repair costs concern me.
• PvP/Combat -- If any of you haven't seen the latest interview on MMORPG, Lord British said they are planning on rolling out PvP early (like the next release), to test combat speed. I think this is a great idea even though the card combat system isn't going to be ready yet. The actual speed of combat might need to be tweeked quite a bit. For example I've noticed fighting giant spiders as a mage is a bit of a problem. I can cast one fireball and bam next move the spiders are already on me. As a mage I would then have to run away and cast another spell, but if you're a fire mage it might be a problem casting fireball when the spiders are inside the range of the explosion and you keep getting hit. It would be nice to out finesse the spiders. I like the speed we all run at to get from place to place, but in combat mode it might need to be tempered a bit, so that we can focus more on our tactics, and our weapon maneuvers. Also we need to have a fighting stance that allows us to move without turning our backs to our opponents, but still have the ability to turn and run away if need be. Also in combat it would be nice if we are more effective attacking/defending if we are in a combat stance rather than breaking form and wildly running at a person. Seems the person who is in a trained fighting stance should have some advantages over a person who breaks form just so they can run around. This might help make the pace of combat more tactical. ALso I think PvP is in the right direction if the devs find a way to compromise a bit on the loot issue a bit to look more like Envy's loot proposal as a kind of base to forge ahead on.
• Card Combat-- I'm skeptical about my spells coming up at random. I would much rather have spells be static, or have the more traditional icons type thing. However I still like the idea of clicking the right spells together to form combos. As for physical weapon combat skills, I don't mind so much if those skill come up at random. *we will see how it goes*
• Murder/Criminal System--Somthing like a less severe version of the UO system would be nice. PKs should try to evade guards in towns etc.
• Music, Arts, Theater-- SotA will likely kick ass at this! SotA has a lot of potential in this area. I think we will be in for quite a treat when we see our first live performance. Really this is going to be awesome! It is under appreciated by the community, probably because we are so busy thinking about combat game mechanics, and not remembering that during kickstarter they mentioned having performance halls. This will eventually be a big selling point for SotA. I hope that people post these performances to Youtube for others to see. This makes the game more than just a sword game. It turns it into a virtual world.
• Magic System-- I remember feeling very excited when they first released the combat and magic sigils. I still feel this way. I think all the skills, (magic, and combat skills) are really cool. It seems like there will be many possibilities of how to mix and match our skills to get a good build. I don't think this game will be limited to a few optimal player archetypes. The hard part is waiting to see what kind of combinations we can create with the skills we have (not just magic, but the combat and armor skills as well). This has a great feel to it.
• Conversation System-- I was a bit concerned about the conversation system for a while because it seemed to be so glitchy. I wondered how it would ever evolve into a working system. However now some of the answers that I'm getting have witty responses. In fact I got responses to stuff I said as a joke. I didn't expect the guy to answer correctly, and instead he replied with a witty response. This system is still young and I feel quite optimistic about conversation. I liked the old school text conversation as an idea, and I see the potential down the road. I think this will be one of the most interesting parts of the game, and will really draw us into the quest system when all the bugs, and the NPCs get even smarter as things progress.
• Crafting System-- I like it a lot. We still have quite a bit of time ahead of us. There is a lot more potential, and this system is likely to continually evolve even after episode 1. Crafters will be relevant, and they make this a player run world.
• Storyline-- Without question this will be good. The single player portion of this game is going to be extraordinary. They haven't talked about it much, but I've played the Ultimas, and I know Hickman's ability too. I have a feeling SotA will even be a step above the old-school Ultimas. Richard is older and wiser, and I think he knows how to tell a tale. This is going to totally win.
• Dual-Scale Map-- They don't even have roads yet. However let's talk potential. I know some people might be turned off by a dual scale map. If somebody is new to sota that might be a huge curve ball. However there is great potential here, and versitility. This is one of the reasons I'm glad I pledged. They can modify a hex without releasing a major patch to the game. New towns and points of interest can pop up over night if need be. It requires less development resources to create a very very large world. Doubling the size of the world each episode! The world is going to be super massive by the time episode 5 is released.
• Economy -- They have not really revealed with too much depth how the economy will be managed. From what I have seen them say, it appears they have the tools to manage it quite well.
• Overall feeling-- Optimistic. I've had my concerns, but like I said I'm feeling sane today, and I feel better about SotA now than I did a few months back. I'm personally quite glad they are going to release this game when it is ready rather than force it out in October 2014. However it will be nice to have an ongoing beta by the end of the year. By then many of the basic things we want to do in the game will be available. I hope I get to test endgame stuff though. I can keep secrets.

Thanks for the question because I like giving feedback. I'm sure I missed something, but I think this game is going to do well. Seeing the progress being made on the conversation system, and the visuals, I imagine that things will be really nice come next year before it's released.

 

Thank *you*, sir!

 

I think it will work because SotA will be a virtual world. These avatars of ours will interact with others. They are creating a truly virtual world, and your avatar is a person there. Chris Spears said in chat today that they are working on Chess Boards!

So we log in and go to the bear tavern, buy a drink and look for a partner to play chess against. It's a virtual world, not just a game.

 

Your right, but I think this isnt a problem of just PvP... this is a problem of a game whose developers are not interested in creating content and environmental play FOR PvP'ers. They are approaching this just like EVERY other gave out there. Flip a switch so players can now attack each other... ok... there is PvP.

There is so much more. Justice system. Play run quests. Environmental changes. Alternate life styles(content and sub-cultures for the shady). None of that seems to be on their minds.

 

Working on chess boards? What the hell is there to work on? It's simple stuff. Chess, checkers, hell, even cards of all sorts. It can be done literally in one day of coding.

Anyway, as someone said earlier, if of 300k people 30k are full-time pvp players, we get 30,000 pvpers.
But you do realize most of them will be combat-only?

SO...the main question is...where do we get PREY? Like, the sheep. You know. The guy you kill while he's pickining god damn mushrooms in the forest.
And if we don't get any prey to hunt, what happens to our immersion? Will we still want to play this game in a totally still world of non-stop PvE and item grind?

What happens if we don't have thieves, looters, people who steal keys?
Do we still get a game as exciting as Ultima?

 

Great response Isaiah, *Thumbs UP*

 

Golden post. +1

 

I think they will turn it around..... Honestly I don't think it is talked about by the dev team because its such a passionate topic . If they say PVP will have this or that . it will be picked apart before it can be tested ..

Why ?

Because everyone Blue Wants to Push down everyone Red, and vise versa .... at that point the conversation for the idea has gone to the wayside because we are very united and passionate Red or Blue alike ...

I Think we will have to Leave a Round or 2 completely to the development team and do our best to give feedback after the fact ..... Speculation is all of our enemy ....... *Wispers* Redrum.

 

You're also largely fixated on recreating what was and are for the most part closed to new ideas, condemning them before they've been implemented. You also take silence on a subject to indicate that it's being ignored.
For example, the PvP implementation that had been scheduled to make an appearance in R11 is now coming in R8... Do you suspect they may be listening to what you say, even though you slam them for not paying attention to you, and screwing most everything up every damn day?
Vitriol and Venom constantly spewing forth in their direction and still they listen to you.

 

Nope, the move of PvP to R11 was all a hoax designed to torment the PvP crowd. They new they were going to enable PvP in R8 all along. </conspiracy mode>

 

LOL
Well i guess you will have to use tactics. When I was in a chaos guild in UO, everybody I fought had skills, not one of them was a sheep that was just out picking flowers. If all you can PK are weak little children then I'm glad if that type of element isn't in the game. LOL Yeah the same arguemnt a PVE player can use, a real PvPer can use against the puke PKs that only preyed on weaklings.

However if you can find some weaklings that want to flag for PvP then initiate them. However I'm guessing that PvPers will likely be skilled. Will they have picked all the best skills... Not the majority of them. So make sure you pick skills that work synergisticly, and learn some combat tactics.

 

Well turning the switch is the first and most important part. I'm glad just to have that Open PvP switch available. I would be a little bit concerned if they create a bunch of "Highly Profitable" PvP stuff, besides some resources and a few other things. The PvE players will cry foul if PvP people should become rich by being PvPers. They will say we don't have the ability to make that cash etc. etc.

If they could have a few perks that might help (the better PvPers) break even with repair bills, then the rest of the money PvP players get will have to come from doing the same stuff as PvE players to get cash. Going into dungeons and killing dragons and other things for wealth. Maybe PvPers can get a little bit more wealth from these creatures since we could get robbed along the way.

 

It is definitive and factual that this will not exist in SotA. Non-consensual PvP is not, has never been, and will not be a feature of this game. It's not even on the table for discussion, as was stated in the original kickstarter, and still people keep bringing it up.

 

@Kronides is right. However @TemplarAssassin has been around here since forever. He knows full well that is never going to happen. LoL
He might want that, but it's not happening. However I really think there will be some easy(er) targets. Or People who just newly flagged for PvP or whatever.

It will be very likely that there will be some players that will visit one of those PvP hexes, and have a lot of fun. They might go on and flag themselves as full time PvP because of it. However doing well in a battle ground isn't the same as defending yourself last second against a meticulously speced out and fully trained PK with skills. So Templar up there may indeed have plenty of easier targets.

If somebody doesn't know when to back away when they are badly hurt, or if they don't use a heal potion or whatever when they should, they will get beat up by a PvPer who knows when you need to do those things against another player.

 

I get it. I just find it a source of moderate amusement that the guy who starts this thread by complaining about the devs' supposed catering to "casuals, " then complains about a perceived lack of easy targets.

Is looking for easy targets "hardcore?"