Upcoming changes to crafting in R 53 - Gold Inflation and more Items for vendors

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Elrond, Mar 22, 2018.

  1. MasterWan

    MasterWan Avatar

    Messages:
    243
    Likes Received:
    372
    Trophy Points:
    30
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Hotlanta
    Yeah I totes agree, this systems sounds great.
    “Lewts” people. We needs the lewts!
     
  2. Ravicus Domdred

    Ravicus Domdred Avatar

    Messages:
    3,715
    Likes Received:
    9,044
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Get In MY BELLY!
    Speaking of items going into the world loot pool. That would be cool if you are in a pvp area and NPC mobs could loot your body. *rummages through body and takes an item* This would also add to the world loot pool. Maybe some ransom mechanic, but I would not like it. In UO I remember struggling to kill the mob that looted my body lol before some one else killed it and took your item.
     
    Spoon, Rada Torment and MrBlight like this.
  3. Elrond

    Elrond Avatar

    Messages:
    1,020
    Likes Received:
    3,057
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Crafters Town
    The Numbers.
    Lets take 100 items through the process of masterwork/enchant.
    95% chance -5 of 100 will be locked with 1 masterwork/enchant - 5 will go to the loot table with 1 masterwork ( by being sold to NPC vendor)
    95 survive first round. Second round begins with 87 % ...83 items will survive with 2 masterworks - 12 will go to the loot table with 2 masterworks ( by being sold to NPC vendor)
    third round out of 83 items - 42 will survive and 41 will go to the loot table with 3 masterworks ( by being sold to NPC vendor)
    Assuming it ends here that will be 58 crap items going to the loot table with just 1,2,3 masterworks( by being sold to NPC vendor)
    Enchant rounds
    1. out of 42 items 39 will survive with 95% chance - 3 will go to loot table with 3 ms/1 enchant ( by being sold to NPC vendor)
    2. out of 39 items ,33 will survive with 86 % chance -6 will no longer go to the loot tables because 3 ms/2 enchant is good for the player vendor
    3. out of 33 items 16 will survive with 48% chance - 17 will no longer go to loot table because who would vendorise to NPC a 3/3 item :rolleyes:

    Once those 3/3, 4/4 items start piling up on vendors..because everyone is already wearing them the issue will be ..should i sell that 3/3 to NPC for 1000 gold or should i try to convince a player to give me 1100 gold. If the market gets that bad and im forced to sell a good item to NPC ..it will make matters even worse... i will no longer sell a 3/3 item to a player that can/or already found it on a trash mob... the more 3/3 enter the loot table the harder will be to sell 3/3 gear...crafters will try push for higher to sell their stuff ...like 4/4 ...once 4/4 its sold to enough players it will begin being sold to NPC ...it enters the loot table ..and the cycle begins again ...4/4 gear becomes unsellable.. because you can find it as loot from mobs..its a neverending cycle that forces crafters to make better and better gear just so they can sell until BETTER is no longer a possibility, and selling to NPC vendor takes over..at least thats how i see it.

    I can understand the appeal to having crafted gear go into the loot table...but the results will be devastating to crafters in my opinion... it will devalue all gear to non existence. I hope im wrong.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  4. Leelu

    Leelu Avatar

    Messages:
    1,458
    Likes Received:
    5,761
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    This Side Of the Mountain
    Well time to start new collections. Hopefully a few from my favorite blacksmiths.
    I can understand the over-pool side of things that are mundane, but hopefully the NPC's will be picky about what they buy.
     
  5. Joe Zhudarak

    Joe Zhudarak Avatar

    Messages:
    249
    Likes Received:
    456
    Trophy Points:
    30
    Gender:
    Male
    Albion online has the same idea, you can sell crafted itens to a black market npc..than it goes the loot table....its a market regulation system that only work in full loot games. Albion has also a crash item system that create an endless item demand. In my opinion the best system is a minimum price for npc vendors for half item materials cost, calculated by item tier... But it should never go to the loot table...itens in sota least so long to do this.
     
    Ahuaeynjgkxs likes this.
  6. Ravicus Domdred

    Ravicus Domdred Avatar

    Messages:
    3,715
    Likes Received:
    9,044
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Get In MY BELLY!
    This makes me think also about book writing. Long long time ago I asked if Player Made books could somehow enter the world loot system. Maybe intelligent mobs would drop them like mages or such.
     
    Cordelayne, Lace and Spoon like this.
  7. Earl Atogrim von Draken

    Earl Atogrim von Draken Avatar

    Messages:
    6,247
    Likes Received:
    11,918
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    THAT'S THE SPIRIT! just imagine the epic nonsense you could pull off with a system like that!

    On a sidenote to all the complaints: they are doing this in Albion and the last time I checked it was working fine.
     
    Cordelayne and majoria70 like this.
  8. Elrond

    Elrond Avatar

    Messages:
    1,020
    Likes Received:
    3,057
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Crafters Town
    Yes but in Albion you dont repair items with Coto's..or not that im aware of. Not to mention today you can be all dressed with best of the best and tomorrow you gonna be running around naked looking for gear cause you got killed and looted. I dont play Albion so gonna ask... Do their gear last months after months like here ?
     
  9. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

    Messages:
    9,570
    Likes Received:
    23,458
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    United States
    Yes and good point. We don't have details yet or if it will happen for sure. but these are the things that need to be brought up so it is a good system.
     
  10. LiquidBlaze

    LiquidBlaze Avatar

    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    275
    Trophy Points:
    30
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    NW Georgia
    There must be something missing between the lines. I'd hope...
     
  11. Earl Atogrim von Draken

    Earl Atogrim von Draken Avatar

    Messages:
    6,247
    Likes Received:
    11,918
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    No you lose items faster in albion.
    But we have a post mortem pretty soon. Thats a couple of nice questions.
     
    Elrond likes this.
  12. jammaplaya

    jammaplaya Avatar

    Messages:
    1,141
    Likes Received:
    2,001
    Trophy Points:
    113
    @Elrond I agree with you on this. I think it's a bad idea economically to not destroy items on failure when masterwork/enchanting. I also liked your idea on point 6 about getting runes towards boosting the success chance. Very cool.

    I think it might be nice if there were a small chance that failure to masterwork or enchant *could* not destroy the item, and just take a chunk of durability, but not happening every single time..(5% chance?) and still be able to be masterworked/enchanted if that happened.
     
    Elrond likes this.
  13. Elrond

    Elrond Avatar

    Messages:
    1,020
    Likes Received:
    3,057
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Crafters Town
    Yes ..and since we have crafting specialization coming ...would have been great to have a chance there like you said starting from 1% at lvl 1 spec and going to 5% at say lvl 100 specialization for an item to not blow up... but i cant see the removal of blowing stuff up as a good thing for the economy...it might be good for the game sex appeal but not for the economy so i guess they have choices to make.
     
    jammaplaya likes this.
  14. Armeleon Vesaz

    Armeleon Vesaz Avatar

    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    382
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Finland
    Great post. I think the number one problem they are trying to fix is the simple frustration from destroying your 3/2 items at the last seconds. Not so much the economy side. They have also stated that crafting specialization is coming in the game (no schedule given afaik). We know no details of the upcoming specializations, so unfortunately we'll just have to discuss this "announced" change without the long term context.

    I will share my thoughts on the change as if we know this is upcoming, but ofc this is not even officially announced and if it was, it could still change.

    First, I think this change would do a good job with the stated goal of fixing the frustrations caused by the current system of breaking the item.

    Second, this would definitely raise the bar of an item that is worth anything to anyone and cause general improvement in the gear people use. Especially with artifacts. Not many people currently have the money to risk enchanting/MWing Dolus Hoods etc, but I think after the changes everyone would do it.

    Third, for very new players, they might actually loot the items sold to vendors and end up using them. But this will not be the case for moderately or very experienced players as the bar for an item worth using is raised significantly with this change.

    Fourth, I do not see the mechanic trough which this affects the relative amount of gear worth selling for a crafter. It will simply introduce a bunch of low and mid-level gear to the economy, which no-one will want.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
    jammaplaya likes this.
  15. jammaplaya

    jammaplaya Avatar

    Messages:
    1,141
    Likes Received:
    2,001
    Trophy Points:
    113
    One thing I was thinking about is that, now that batching can produce exceptional items, why not promote batching by giving each subsequent item in a batch a 1% bonus chance to be exceptional? Realistically, just like IRL, the first item in the batch is the worst, and everything after that is easier, especially with a jig.

    Then when they add specializations to crafting skills, they could add a skill for increasing the batch counts, like they did with refining specializations already. Higher batch count would then increase the %bonuses to exceptional items via batching. By your 20th item in the batch, you're getting a 19% bonus chance to get exceptional, plus the already existing exceptional chance of ~25% at GM in the crafting skill. With specialization increasing crafting batch count, by that 30th item it's another 10%, so it's like 50-60% chance of exceptional items at the end of the batch. Who wouldn't want to make 30 halberds or 30 bronze plate chests all at once if half of them are pretty much guaranteed to be exceptional?

    The idea would be to promote batching, because it makes it less frustrating when some items are getting destroyed by MW/Enc. When you're making a ton of items, it's not so bad.
     
    Bow Vale likes this.
  16. Elnoth

    Elnoth Avatar

    Messages:
    675
    Likes Received:
    1,466
    Trophy Points:
    93
    From what I understand from previous discussions of player made items entering the loot table (in telethons of years past) they won't put 100% of items back into the loot table, but only a percentage (from memory they bounced the 50% number), so 50% of items sold to merchants will be destroyed, 50% will go into the loot table.

    Overall I think there is good potential with the system, but I also share the concerns of flooding the game with items. I think that there needs to be a balance where on a failure, there is a chance that the item is still destroyed. So Perhaps, instead of a "small durability loss", there is a more moderate durability loss, larger than normal, and if the item is taken to zero durability or below in this process, it is still destroyed. This will allow items that have an early failure to still be useable, but people that "push the boundary" and keep going for that +18 item to inherit a risk. So if you have an exceptional chest that is +15 with 3/3 MW/enchants and 50 durability, people won't automatically go for that 4th enchant or MW knowing the item can't be lost. If there was a chance that the failure could still destroy the item (say with a failure causing an extra durability loss of 50, bringing it to 0 durability and breaking) then people will not automatically push things until they get that failure.
     
    Lace likes this.
  17. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

    Messages:
    9,570
    Likes Received:
    23,458
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    United States
    I don't know about you but I already use low level stuff that I have managed to create without blowing up. As with other games players can even buy these armors to break down especially if there is a plus side to that added into the game like that we get a few resources back from refining items. New players I have heard have been upset by not being able to find any special armor and this armor in many cases will be an upgrade for players. And plus the ideas for adding this feature can all be worked out and this thread is helping already to provide some great ideas. Sorry this is not said in a ranting voice. It is just thoughts I got from hearing things said so far. Now if everything implemented in the game could get feedback that was implemented from it that would be awesome. I would have loved to have some impact on a few more things such as the Ice Queen out fit yikes. ;) and the fishing that was not enhanced as examples but when it is. That will be the time to discuss away like this.
     
  18. Rhiannon

    Rhiannon Avatar

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1,777
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Bloomington, IN
    Oh man that used to make me SO mad. I wasn’t strong enough to kill that liche the first time and he takes my stuff?
     
    Ravicus Domdred and jammaplaya like this.
  19. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

    Messages:
    2,447
    Likes Received:
    9,414
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Female
    I like the idea of locking rather than destroying.
    I think the main thing we'll see is that if you have a 2x/2x enchanted/masterworked item that is OK, you can now throw more gold at it and maybe make it good.
    In the past, failing destroyed this, poof. Now, it will still stay 'okayish' with slightly less dura.
    The reality is that crafting just became a little less wasteful, but what am I going to do with this item that I don't need, can't enchant further, and am not going to wear?
    Same thing I do with all the other garbage that survived in the past ...throw it on a vendor and try to get some money back for it. Any money. Or give it away to a new person. Or maybe just salvage it and hope for an ingot or something back. Pretty much anything I do is better than vendoring it to an npc for <50 gold.

    Unless the vendor value of crafted goods is seriously re-evaluated, there is no incentive to sell things to the npc.

    Based on fluctuating ore costs, crafting a single bronze longsword with no masterworks and enchants clocks in at about 4500 gold worth of materials. (Copper 40,Tin 175,Scraps 1.5, Coal 6)
    It sells to the NPC vendor for like...100 gold. If you throw another 5000 gold worth of gold/silver on it enchanting it, it still sells to the NPC vendor for like....100 gold. That ends up being less than 1% of resource value. This is why it is, and has always been, better to sell resources than to try and make anything with them. Particularly because things break. Now instead of breaking they'll just be locked at 'not useful'. Still not going to be selling it to the npc.

    If sale prices were re-evaluated to give a meaningful amount of refund to the crafter, then we'd start NPCing this stuff, sure. And what happens to it after that -whether it goes into the loot table or just disappears but we don't eat the complete loss - its a better situation for me, as a crafter.

    The loot table thing, is a bit odd, because chances are if an item is so bad that your best course of action is to 'vendor dump' it, if someone else loots it, what are they going to do? Probably vendor dump it ....over and over, until some mechanic removes said item from the pool. If the item can't be improved further, than to most people, its junk - they don't want it any more than I did. Other than getting your 'name' out there as a crafter (signed to your worst, most crappy pieces...:x) I don't see what this loot cycling is going to achieve.
     
    Cordelayne, Nikko, Lace and 4 others like this.
  20. Scoffer

    Scoffer Avatar

    Messages:
    795
    Likes Received:
    2,429
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I don't think it will upset the economy much since my +15 bronze plate chest piece is currently valued at 300 which is actually worth less than the resources to make a single bronze ingot and doesn't take into account the silver, gold or gems used in the process since the value is the same regardless of how much its been enchanted and masterworked.

    My main concern is that vendors are already full of junk. If these enter the loot tables then people finding them who don't know much about how crafting works are just going to try listing them on their own vendors and actually finding the good stuff when shopping is going to be harder from a customer point of view. The already saturated market is just going to get soggier and it doesn't really solve anything.

    Now if this was combined with the decay mechanism that was talked about a while back and you could spend your xp to unlock an item that might be viable but the whole selling to npcs and them appearing in the loot list is a bad idea.
     
    Nikko and kaeshiva like this.