Weapons and Magic

I don't understand why fizzle, backfire and slugs for armor are so well thought out, but people can cast spells with a Greatsword and there's no penalty for that.

It seems counter intuitive to me. If you use a weapon you get an advantage but if you don't use a weapon (like me) you just lose the advantages of using a weapon.

Please make weapon use add to fizzle, backfire, and slugs depending on the stats of the weapon.

I also believe that both Staves and Wands should have slight penalties if they are to be used as weapons. Lastly, I'd like to see a combat animation put in for people that are just casting magic and not also boxing during combat. I don't want my character to randomly punch people in the face between spells, I just want him to cast spells, that's it.

 

Lol you are ahead of things. I know you are just making sure it's the way you want it to be or think it should be and I know that is very helpful for the game Baron. I also know we have you to thank to get the ball going on getting us our wonderful combat so far and so much faster than planned. I hope I am as successful in my vendetta . I don't agree with you about staves and wands though. They are mage weapons and should be trainable to use as a mage weapons if so desired without a penalty. If you prefer not to use them that should be up to you. It just means your picture of a mage is a little different than some. Not a bad thing but just a different viewpoint. So keep up the great work

 

I pretty much Agree with this, except: I want to use a Staff with my mage as a melee weapon. It is traditionally a mage weapon so why should there be a penalty for using one?

 

I don't think there should be a penalty, I just think there should be some balance.

If I'm not using a staff or a wand and have no offensive capability other than my magic, why should you get a free extra attack because you carry a staff or a wand? I think it's fine to do that, but there should be something that balances that out with the base of having nothing.

So I would suggest that if you carry a staff, for example, that it impacts SOMETHING as a price for getting the extra physical attack. Maybe it's just 2% backfire and 2% fizzle.

 

No major attempt at balance was attempted for R8. They just wanted to see if we could successfully whack/nuke each other. Balance will come in subsequent releases.

 

Thank you I'm aware of that. This thread is designed to start the conversation early instead of waiting for them to create something that's unbalanced.

 

Well then don't make statements that sound like you are unaware of that.

Since you know that no attempt was made at balance, why don't you understand that in R8, there is no penalty for casting a spell with a Greatsword?

Hint: Because there was no great attempt made to balance things in R8.

 

I am finding the concept of an 'extra attack' to be a bit.. odd. Are you suggesting that one could attack with a weapon and cast at the same time if they're holding a weapon? Cause that doesn't quite sound right to me.

My personal take it rather than penalties from weapons being based on stats that they might be based on material. Staves are usually made of wood.. maybe even a special kind of wood that undergone special treatment of some kind.

I'm also unsure how I feel about an assumption that all spells require hand motion. If I were designing the spell system I might have a variety of spells with different requirements. Maybe some on inhibited by metals meaning higher fizzle of armor and metal weapons. Maybe some also do require specific hand gestures while others may strictly have a verbal component (no helms or masks that cover the mouth). where as you don't need your hands but you do need to stand in one place and concentrate.

 

Owain, I read all the dev posts, I watch all the dev hangouts. I've been here for years. I played all the releases. I know.

I'm not complaining about R8, I'm complaining that there's been ZERO talk of changing this aspect of R8. I don't believe the devs have current plans to make weapons add to fizzle or backfire.

Now then, if you know differently, please show me where I might find a quote good sir.

 

I think people are going by what was required in UO. You couldn't cast with a weapon in hand, so you would have to unequip, cast, then re-equip. It's not the extra attack so much as the equipping thrash people think should be necessary.

 

I'm just pointing out that if you know very well that no effort was made at balance in R8, than you should have known the answer to your question before you asked it as to why someone can cast a spell while holding a broadsword. Need another hint?

 

I'm saying that if all other things are equal and you have a weapon and I don't, that's an advantage that is unbalanced at it's core. I believe that to balance that, the devs need to add some fizzle and backfire to all weapons (including staves and wands).

Yes, that's all good...but it doesn't balance combat, it balances the byproduct of combat in the macro economy. It's not important to this discussion, it would make an excellent thread somewhere else though.

Yes, verbal, semantic, material (based on metal perhaps) components would be welcome. Good thoughts here.

 

I'm not talking about R8 (beyond the fact that it lacked this functionality), I'm talking about the known design of the game. No dev has ever said that weapons will have fizzle or backfire. If they intend to have that, then I have no concern.

I'm now going to continue to discuss this as I originally intended.

 

I have to nitpick this one. It hasn't been 18 months yet. You've been here over A year. I have been here since day 1 of the kickstarter and even I haven't been here for years.

 

I knew someone would call me out on that. It will be true in a few months then. Although technically I've been "here" in existence for many years.

 

Listen to the PvP video posted last month prior to R8. They talk about casting with weapons, and casting with wands and staves, and casting without reagents, and how much of the work on various combinations and permutations will be covered in R9, but won't be in R8 because they aren't worried about balance all that much for R8.

 

Watched it, my point still stands, please don't derail the thread anymore. I'm going to discuss this.

 

Your invalid point stands. Go right ahead, then.

 

I agree somewhat in principle but I think you can only take that argument so far. If two fighters of equal skill enter a battlefield and one is fully equipped and the other chooses to fight naked.. it's not going to be a balanced fight. The well equipped fighter is obviously going to have the advantage.. but that advantage is a matter of player choice, not mechanics.

If you are capable of casting with a weapon but choose not to use one.. the game cannot compensate for a player's choice to go without.

Now again I'm agreeing in principle. I don't want to see a bunch of tank mages running around casting equally potent spells as a pure mage build but I also see no problem with a mage have the classic accessories and weapons.. such as a staff. Now maybe that staff needs something special to not inhibit casting that can't be done with a greatsword. I'm fine with that. A mage's staff should be special.

 

What if to ballance the pure caster and the hybrid, there is a negative to casting with certian types of weapons for some elements, while they function better with the opposing element.

• Sun -- Bow and Mace overlap as having a good chance to cast without fizzle, but the sword, and the polarm not so good.
• Earth -- Mace has the best chance to cast spells without fizzle and swords the lowest chance to cast without fizzle
• Life -- Mace and Polarm overlap as having the better chance to cast without fizzle, but the sword and the bow have the highest fizzel chance
• Water -- Polarm is the best to cast without fizzle, and bows have the most likely chance to fizzle
• Lunar -- Swords and Polarms overlap as being the better chance to not fizzle, and bows, and maces have a higher chance to fizzel
• Air -- Swords has the best chance to successfully cast without fizzle. Maces have the highest chance of spell fizzle
• Death -- Archery and Swords overlap, as having the more likely not to fizzle, and bludgeon, and polarms have a greater chance to fizzel.
• Fire -- Archery has the best chance to successfully cast without fizzle. Polarms have the highest chance to fizzle.

**Shields could have maximum fizzle chance for offensive spells, but have lesser fizzle chance for healing and buff non offensive spells.

So each weapon type could go with a particular element it works well with (but not 100%), and the further from it's main element on the spell sigil the greater the chance it will have to fizzle the spell.

This is the benifit I see:

1. This benefits pure casters because a person wielding a weapon will always have a certain chance to fizzle a spell.
2. It will make it easier to balance skills since we know there are certain weapons that go well with certain types of magic, and not so well with others.
3. Roots are an earth magic skill, and bludgeons also have lots of stuns and knockdowns. It would be a good match for maces.
4. Swords are fast like the wind, and strike like lighting. Also it is a benifit to be more difficult for a blades person to use Earth spells like root which would limit them from using root to run behind opponents, and use a double strike to the back. So having a higher fizzle rate for earth magic helps keep the blades from totally dominating mages and rogues (or WORSE rogues who use blades from taking on root to further dominate a player by landing backstabs while they are rooted) So it might be good to limit a blades master from using earth magic without bigger penalties.
5. Bows seem to flow well with fire. Arrows spread across the sky, as fire also spreads.
6. The polarm is good for attack and for defense. It also slowly wears down armor, and the opponent, like water erodes the rocks. The defensive nature of the polarm goes well this.
7. The energy magic ajacent to each of the elements would work from better (ajacent to main element) to worse (the further away from main element) on the sigil.
8. ALSO this type of prioritization would keep hybrid mages, unable to master all of the spell trees equally. They will have to choose their weapon and spells wisely.

Shields have high fizzle for offensives spells, but do well with buff and heal spells.

**Also there should be an option to not use your staff or wand as a very damaging weapon, but as magic focusing device. So they don't do much damage, but a staff working like a polarm could push back an opponent with the knockback skill, but not really do much damage.

I heard Chris or somebody mention they might allow for focus regeneration. I would love to see wands and rods not cause spell fizzle unless they are "enhanced" with weapon enhancements rather than magic based enchantments.