Why is taming not competitive vrs other specializations.

Before R62, taming was far superior to summoning, as all of the summons were literally just overcosted level 1 creatures. As of the current release though, tamed pets have far more health and survivability, but do not deal as much damage as a summon does. Well, there are a couple of summons that are exceptions to that rule:

The phoenix is currently bugged and not scaling nor gaining any sort of benefit from the sun specialization. The Wisp, while gaining health and faster cast time from the specialization, still isn't getting any scaling for its debuffs.

Also, the Destroyer deals more damage than every summon except for the undead pets.

 

I know you think taming is all good to go, you have championed taming for a while. The Destroyer should have never been introduced. Now it is a One time death critter, good but still. You do not see any around do you, just for show just like Wyvrens. Flash in the Pan.

Taming has been a joke since inception since it uses a whole skill tree and has skills that equate to nothing since they are not really even needed. In the end one only needs 80 Taming and 80 Healing and enough summons to call a FRS or DS corpions and then 1 res and you are Good to goo. Use pet it dies res it rinse repeat. You can have someone else tame them. Argue with me all you want bout it, say how great taming is all you want, but in the end the above skills are all that is needed to use a pet, has been and will be until they actually FIX taming.

That has been the issue with taming from the start but to many players just accept it for what it is.

As a result of that acceptance players, the OP and myself make posts every so often to try and shine some light on the true flaws. In the end we are beaten back because enough players accept mediocrity, and the Devs throw on a new coat of color.

Summons and tames are not the same and should never be compared, nor should they be comparable to each other.

Taming as a skill tree is broken has been since introduced, new pets are not the solution, just more lipstick.

@Bioxide , in the end this thread has reached its end you have your answers, as you can see developers will not comment, to many players accept it for what it is, wait for the magical Fix.

 

Selling exp I have to do the work. Think what you want, that IS what caused the first pet nerf after persistence, so I am pretty sure its a HUGE part of the topic. Now you say imbalance between them, but really, what is it to summon a destroyer bear, level 89 in summon creature and a 20 in the prerequisite skill. Now how does that base bear compare to a summon at its minimum? Cuz the actual taming skill is not part of the pet, that is for getting the pets, and if you buy them, you can skip that. I think its only 3 skills that amp up your pet in the taming tree, the rest if your putting exp into it is for getting the pets and should not count towards the exp for the pets str.

 

Um, when have I ever said that taming is fine? I never have, only that summons are mostly fine, needing only a few tweaks here and there. As posted previously, tamed pets and the tree are getting their own separate combat pass (Chris said so himself, and the R62 notes also confirm this). Taming should get a combat pass, as well as some tweaks. This I have never denied, instead having been eager to see what changes they will get especially in Ep.2 when pet training and taming expansions will happen.

As for taming pets, the most common I see are bears, whether or not they are destroyers, I don't know. What I do know, is that people who have actually put time and effort into overleveling the taming tree never even have to worry about losing their destroyer bear since it will have a few thousand health and deal decent damage. Just like me when I was leveling the Death summons and their passives BEFORE R62. The difference was that my Undead summons didn't (and still don't) have 1k or more health for survivability. Before R62, my Undead pets did at most 27-45 damage with sub 1k health. Does this mean it's fine? Absolutely not. The destroyer should be outdamaging all but the most trained undead summons, and even then it should still be stronger.

Of course summons and tameables aren't the same type of pet, but they SHOULD be compared, especially at times like this. That was we have a good idea on how strong a tamed pet should be compared to how they are now.

If you would actually pay attention to livestreams, Chris literally talked about making tameables different from each other: Like how Wyverns will deal more damage than the destroyer, but have less health.

Maybe you need to look at the information available to you before you make such hasty assumptions.

 

Never said anything about you selling your time , said you promote AFK play, sell all you want to people who will pay for it.
The diff between using and getting a pet is only one skill all the rest are garbage, ty for the rest of your comments that support my thoughts on why taming is so broken.

pet where never changed as you think, the LOS was an issue that is fixed but you can sit afk and they will still kill.

All pets are already different, Wolves, bears, spiders, they all had their own "special" abilities. Again fixing the pets is not the issue. Fix the skill tree first.



I know all that is said (and has been said for a long time) and published and even what is not since they talk in other places also.

Pets are not the issue Mac2 even states so.

HENCE WHY FIX THE TAMING SKILL TREE, has been my opinion from the get go and all the changes to pets and summons means zilch.

TY both of you for supporting my concerns, and opinions

I am pretty much done with this thread all I can say has been said and carrying on tangents or personal fights are not worth it.

 

Pets were totally changed just a bit after persistence. I think fer red did like 80+ hits back then. Some of the tamers I knew were super pissed at that nerf, cuz at the time, they had put all they had gotten so far to be able to tame them, back then 8 mil and all the silver to get the collars that did not drop back then, had to be made. Owl had ani taming the first fer red on the server, jack and para and some others used them to do sanctus spine and they could go afk. This IS what caused the nerf, even chris said this. Sorry you dont believe what actually happened, but that IS what happened, it IS the truth, accept it or not.

The rest of the skills are not garbage if you want to TAME pets, but this discussion is not about taming pets, its about the power of the pets.

 

So the OP actually says what the Plan for T A M I N G.

But again dig push pull whatever, the point is . . .

FIX THE TAMING SKILL and Pet changes are NOT the solution.

Peace out

 

When I dropped sun spec my dps went down massively in addition to the loss of my warlock chain. The dps I get from say any summon pet plus the two items I mention will out dps my obsidian destroyer and I’m betting I’m the highest level tamer (1250 pts) in the game atm. Just saying with all the points I have in taming and I find it inconveient to even summon any tamed pet.

My wyvern does about 11 dps on a practice dummy, enough said.

I’ll admit people can cheat with pets those people should be banned for cheating not a spec ruined over it.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/531134940054683658/542921479537295381/IMG_0059.JPG


This is Auto Attack only damage not even a good bow with 110 skills vrs one of the hardest pets to tame used by one of the if not the highest tamer in the game in the game on a practice dummy. This is single target dps most specs have multi target dps skills so this even favors the pet. OHHH and that's wearing caster int gear , I can link these same test with all bronze gear and a GOOD bow it would be even worse.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/531134940054683658/543077700550656091/IMG_0064.JPG

The above is a level 31 lich non spec vrs a fully speced Wyvern

 

This is a great time to post complete, innovative design proposals, and perhaps see it show up in game.

If we just tell the devs to fix it, we know what is coming. It could be good, but the word they have given is pet skills and balancing. That's pretty standard, I'd love to hear some ideas for novel approaches.

If you've got an idea for a new and amazing system, post it.

 

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/531134940054683658/542921479537295381/IMG_0059.JPG

better balance That's bow Auto attack (non spec vrs HIGH taming spec )

Below is Polearmed combat to 50 cloth gear auto attack only.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/531134940054683658/542935499870961664/IMG_0060.JPG

AND THIS is my level 31 lich fighter NON Spec, as you can see this beats my wyvern ( A crazy HIGH leveled one!!!!) for the record that's most likely 300,000,000,000 ish xp in taming /w spec vrs 25,000 in summon lich.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/531134940054683658/543077700550656091/IMG_0064.JPG

 

I get it. But what you're asking for is already on the schedule.

As the top tamer, lay down some exciting ideas for more than balance and manual "web him" skills.

What should the taming tree look like when they get to it?

 

Well I think that for taming to be good and fair the reward must equal the effort and there isn’t a tree in the game that has more cost or effort than taming and as you can see from all my hard data that the reward piece ain’t even close.

Exciting idea number one would be to make it a dps class that people could be proud of look for the example at my Lich data this is a pet that has no investment no real focus cost and you don’t lose your neck slot it’s stronger than a pet that costs lots of silver massive amounts xp and more time to get and use yet it beats it hands down in damage. Have you ever tried to tame a wyvern it’s hard work and lots of deaths and gear damage solo not to mention regs and time hunting them they are not a easy or guaranteed find.

Make a tamer, you will see the anger tamers have time and costs vrs any Benifits other than look at me I have a pet following me. With out reward for time spent this is a failed tree like everything else.

Put in a crafters terminology say that a gm crafter made the same gear with the same stats as someone who has never crafted and never was required to gather mats to craft could it would kinda make crafting suck huh? Tons of effort in taming and a no effort Lich can beat it.

I’m not anti summons guys either all this crap needs to be legit vrs all the other trees and it’s not.

Should taming and healing be equal to poles and healing maybe not but it’s not even in the same universe as that. Taming is less dps than playing a focus and light armed spec tank or a heavy spec healer that only uses body slam .

 

All the way back to release 25 notice I have been championing Taming from it inception.

Notice the first report about pets not following commands - it is still an issue today

I have at least 3 place I have gave very expanded ways to improve the taming tree to make it truly viable

All appear to be a waste of time.

New pets or pets abilities are NOT the problem with taming there is a CORE PROBLEM of the Skill Tree itself and the pets W O R K I N G.

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/taming-are-you-serious.42698/
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...of-two-here-are-some-ideas.43215/#post-480125
/https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/ok-here-is-why-taming-of-pets-needs-to-have-some-adjustments-for-pet-control.43369/https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/ok-here-is-why-taming-of-pets-needs-to-have-some-adjustments-for-pet-control.43369/
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...-have-some-adjustments-for-pet-control.43369/
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...mting-they-should-atack-it.45466/#post-503333
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...mting-they-should-atack-it.45466/#post-503333
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...build-and-or-animal-taming.45530/#post-504291
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...cifically-controlling-pets.45873/#post-507677
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...ol-and-gust-balls-macroing.47230/#post-519759
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...s/i-need-a-guide-to-taming.47342/#post-521158
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/some-taming-feedback.47563/#post-523623
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/some-taming-feedback.47563/#post-523623
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...ing-changes-incoming.57575/page-3#post-615175
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/taming-nerf.59831/page-4#post-633051
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...re-can-tame-but-not-summon.70697/#post-702523
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...re-can-tame-but-not-summon.70697/#post-702523
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...ng-thoughts-for-developers.79483/#post-755603
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...taming-ever-getting-fixed.103522/#post-899096
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...taming-ever-getting-fixed.103522/#post-899096
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...-ranger-going-to-be-a-viable-template.107769/
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/taming-mastery-idea.108418/#post-934436
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...g-info-after-todays-patch.110626/#post-948433
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/question-about-taming.111976/#post-956667
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...mbalance-please-address-before-launch.112267/
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/pet-following-commands.112493/#post-960253


This is my last reply here if you cannot find the problems or add solution from all that above

 

The balance in XP has to be considered from the point of view that zero taming skills are needed. Only skills to summon are required.

Taming should have been a crafting skill and creature handling should have been the combat skill. But too late for that, cannot move something from one to the other as producer xp != Adventure XP in terms of effort.

So the balance should be done on XP REQUIRED to USE the pet not tame it. Unless they make using non self tamed pets not allowed in combat and bought pets become vanity pets only.


Regards
Spung

 

The OP's argument may be true for "most summons" but hmm, let's compare the XP costs for using a tamed creature vs. a Lich.

For both cases, let's assume you will take all required skills to at least the minimum level to get to the next tier in the tree... and, for any skill available that will help your pet be better and stronger you will take to GM (level 100).

Format will be: Skill [XP chart factor] (skill level) XP spent

Taming Tree
Tame Creature [1] (20) 496
Summoning [1] (100) 1,212,424
Obedience [1] (100) 1,212,424
Combat Training [1] (100) 1,212,424
Taming Specialization [20] (100) 24,248,480

Total required = 28,008,672

Death Tree - Lich
Tap Soul [2] (20) 992
Corpse Explosion [1] (40) 3,887
Death Touch [1] (40) 3,887
Death Mastery [4] (100) 4,849,696
Summon Skeleton [4] (40) 15,548
Death Ray [2] (40) 7,774
Undead Mastery [4] (100) 4,849,696
Mumified Undead [4] (100) 4,849,696
Death Shield [2] (40) 7,774
Summon Lich [6] (100) 7,274,544
Death Magic Specialization [20] (100) 24,248,480

Total required = 46,111,974

To summon a Lich, it costs almost double the XP it costs to summon a Tamed creature!

I know that if you are also the tamer, that requires another large amount of XP to be able to tame the best pets. However, you can simply buy them from other players or get them for free from guildmates so that extra XP is not "required".

I also know that not all of those skills are required to be GM for a lich, but if you don't. it will be a pitiful companion with very low HPs and very low damage. Not even worth using unless you GM all the skills you can (and even then it's debatable).

Now, also consider the following:
1. Tamed creatures will follow you from scene to scene, including the overworld. Summoned creatures are dismissed automatically when you zone out.
2. A lich costs reagents to recast every time you call him. Tamed creatures, you just blow a whistle.
3. A tamed pets health will regen out of combat. A lich's health drops automatically, whether in or out of combat. It does have a minor life tap ability where they can sort of keep themselves alive in combat if they can land enough hits. But they need constant attention and help just to keep them alive. To counter the health drop, you need to use heal over time spells, artifacts or gear with Death Decay modifiers on them, and/or play a Harp of Invigoration.
4. I don't know what the lich's health is when the skill is 100... but at level 80, mine only has 663 max hitpoints. I've seen some Obsidian Destroyers with over 2400 hitpoints! Heck, I just called a tamed Large Obsidian Bear (not even a Destroyer) and he has 812 hitpoints without Taming Specialization! When I had a Destroyer, I think it had close to 1000 hitpoints.
5. To be fair, tamed pets do require the whistle to be equipped in the neck slot and a lich doesn't, so a players stats can be affected in that regard and that should be noted here.

So, while I'm sympathetic to the cause of "tamed pets need love", I have to say the reward vs. investment when compared to the Summoned Lich pet is not even close. You get a lot more bang for your buck with a tamed pet than you do with a Lich. The newest improvements in damage for the Lich is a good start at balance... but when considering the XP investment it needs much more still IMO.

 

Did you see my dps comparison level 31 lich vrs a crazy high level wyvern?


The lich has more dps!