The net effect of card combat on me and how YOU THE PLAYER can start a REVOLUTION

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by Prince Guni, Jul 26, 2014.

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Do you like random cards?

  1. Keep those random cards coming!

    95 vote(s)
    67.9%
  2. I don't like random/chance/clicking but want to focus on my tactics instead! Fixed cards please!

    45 vote(s)
    32.1%
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  1. Prince Guni

    Prince Guni Avatar

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    Exactly, as you say it. In a fixed spell bar system with timers I can trigger several spells that are then executed one by one in a queue, effectively telling the game (and the server) several seconds before my character is actually executing the spell. The server won't have to verify what spells I have available either because it still knows. That means when I play I can give commands that are going to be executed a few seconds later. Enough time for those commands to reach the server in time, even when lag spikes happen. Because there is no strict LOS and distance penalty in some of those games, the game is also much more forgiving if e.g. due to lag my screen action is not precisely synced with where characters are on the server. My spell or arrow won't miss just because that opponent is not precisely in the spot that I just saw him on my screen a second ago when I targeted. The whole idea of targeting, LOS and such just breaks when there is lag and what a player in Asia sees on his screen is a second or more behind the real action on the server.
     
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  2. Prince Guni

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    Of course you can. It happens all the time. A good MMORPG combat system is exactly designed that way from the ground up with a high tolerance for Internet latency. If Portalarium decides to ignore that and implements some combat system that punishes players overseas they will rightfully decide that the game sucks (for them) and play something else.
     
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  3. Vendetta Beretta

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    Yeah but how does it punish players over seas? I still don't see how the deck would play into lag anymore than a static tool bar? The glyphs seem to come up on regular intervals, and they stay there for quite a while. If anything it should be better than having a static toolbar with cooldown timers because you can fire off several attacks in a row with the same skill even.

    So please explain your reasoning about why a deck would cause trouble with lag.
     
  4. Trenyc

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    The deck isn't the biggest part of the problem. Rather, other mechanics of the combat system create issues, like missile trajectory. (You know, when you shoot a fireball, it will land on the location targeted even if the character you had targeted moves, allowing your target to dodge the fireball.) If Prince Guni hits 2 to shoot a fireball at Lord Trady, it might take two seconds for the server to receive that command, during which time Lord Trady might move behind a tree, causing the server to report that Lord Trady is out of range when in fact he was well within range when Prince Guni pushed the 2 button on his keyboard.

    This issue carries into many aspects of gameplay, of course. If it generally takes commands two seconds to move between Prince Guni's local network and the game servers, it'll make for a very frustrating gaming experience when Prince Guni attempts any reaction-based gameplay. This is actually a big part of the reason why game processes are generally overly simplified in MMOs. If crafting an item requires only that you assemble your ingredients and click button to produce the item, that two second delay can't possible cause a player to mess up creating the item. However, if there are "events" that happen while crafting and you have to respond to these events on a timer to successfully complete the craft, it might be impossible for Prince Guni to craft anything. It just so happens that combat is one area of the game where these problems are most apparent.

    Of course, this is nothing new. Servers in California have had trouble talking to clients in China since the beginning of the Age of the Telecoms. It's a problem worth noting, though, because it continues to cause big headaches for players not located near game servers if game design requires too much in the way of player reaction.
     
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  5. Prince Guni

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    Vendetta, I think Trenyc provided a good explanation above.

    So, to sum up some of the recent discussion, some of the issues we are facing:

    1. Random cards may require synchronous client-server communication (and confirmations) which make queuing and server side predictions harder. Which in turn might give people with long pings a hard time. Since I don't know the implementation details I can only say: whoever is programming this should really take a close look how well long pings and lag spikes can be tolerated.

    2. Requirements such as LOS, positioning and such are very unforgiving to any sort of lag. I would at least suggest to fall back on something less strict if pings go up.

    3. Key binding such as CTRL+[number] to click away slugs (or right mouse button forcing the player to stop moving view/camera) are annoying to normal players and not a problem for people with special gaming gear. So we have annoyance and a balancing issue.

    4. Some players might not enjoy being forced to constantly mess with slugs and changing skills. In PvP it makes it hard to focus on the actual combat action and in PvE it may just get tiring.

    5. If you don't know which skills you will be able to use you can also not plan any tactics based on specific skills.

    6. Some people reported that they just used whatever skills became available in their combat bar. To me, that does not sound like tactics. It more sounds like the system randomly deciding how the combat is played out and the player just using whatever moves the system gives him.

    7. Lack of an automatic camera means that the mouse has to be used almost all the time to move the camera/view. That makes it unavailable for other uses, such as clicking away slugs, unless the player takes a break from moving.

    8. Many players locked some cards and/or put multiple copies of the same few skills in their decks to regain some predictability of skill availability. They often ended up playing with 4, 5, maybe 6 skills/powers per deck total. This, however, totally removes the stated benefit of random card decks to allow players to use more skills with less short keys / slots in the UI. I also ended up playing with less skills/powers than what I would usually be using during combat in other games.
     
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  6. Violation Clauth

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    I'd love to respond personally on each point here...

    I only noticed lag when the master changed... once my bot had master vengeance didn't feel laggy to me at all.

    Uh... so you're suggesting changing combat in the middle of combat based on ping? I hope everyone has the exact same balanced combat approach if you handcap we'll get lag monsters (people who torrent max their upload to gain benefit).

    You cannot ever balance a system for a video gamer environment where someone has spent $3500+ on their setup vs someone who spent $500... you can make things non irritating but you cannot balance it... it's just not possible. If you do try overly hard to balance it then the dumbing down of the system to disable features like the G-keys and macro mouse users then you frustrate those of us who have $500+ in our accessories and $2g+ in our systems. I think it's important to make it enjoyable for all and not dumb the system down... there are only so many left handed combos you can get without gaming gear and it's up to the user to setup their keybinds how they like them the best... not portalarium.

    They're not... the static combat system already exists

    that's why you build a deck... make it right and you know what you'll get... or don't build a deck and lock your whole bar... set it right and you know what you'll get... if you setup your combat before going into combat you'll have the most controlled environment that's possible... the reality is with combat nothing can ever be fully controlled... it is inherently chaotic!

    In wow some people hit 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1... mages sometimes would just cast frostbolt forever... nothing else... ice lance spammers in wrath... I can't say this politely but people who play wrong shouldn't determine how the system grows...

    I keep hearing about camera issues but I have yet to see any... I actually looked for them in the last release and didn't notice anything besides inside of buildings and under decorations... I'd like to see the camera pass through things a bit better (house boat notably needs adjusting). Besides that I'm unable to comment on it because it functions exactly how I naturally expect it to work and can't find an issue with it.

    You can't have your cake and eat it! Wait you can! Just lock 3 of the skills and randomize 6 skills (4-5 cards each) for your deck... then you have the best of both worlds on a 9 slot bar! :)

    I like giving people the reasons why "change for the sake of change" isn't always best... if you don't like the system sometimes change isn't the answer... sometimes giving it a chance and trying to adapt is... this system is really sweet! Anyway. I also wanted to encourage people to tune in and take part (we have 2 or 3 slots left) in our google hangout with community members... we're trying to find a balanced "hate it" and "love it" conversation to gather all the why/what/when/where/who type information and give a succinct "this is what needs changed" to devs. JOIN US! Cheers :)
     
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  7. Lord Artia

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    In that case they did make a game for you. They made 4 modes in which you and your friends can play!:]
     
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  8. Vendetta Beretta

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    I still don't see how that would be any different if he wasn't using the deck system. If he has a 2000ms ping time like you said, and uses a fireball from a static icon, it would still be 2 seconds too late.

    The point I'm making is the lag has nothing to do with whether or not you are using a deck or using a traditional model. The only thing that is relevant here is the network issue. The deck system is going to deal out the cards at the same rate and they will remain available the same amount of time. So the deck system doesn't even play a part in this hypothetical lag issue.
     
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  9. Trenyc

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    That's why I said the deck isn't by any means the most important factor in all this. :p What he's criticizing is the combat system overall, not just the deck system. The "traditional model" for combat systems in a game like this doesn't use environmental objects like trees as LoS limiters, and that model doesn't utilize positional targeting. The "action-oriented" aspects of this combat model are what will cause problems for those suffering from lag.

    The card dealing system is impacted by these issues, specifically where it comes to execution of combos (as I previously explained), but the issues with deck dealing are likely to be less significant overall than issues with positioning and targeting.
     
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  10. wmidgard

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    yes it does .
    thy will have to do the cards server side to prevent hacking ( otherwise you can just keep on fiering uber combos all the time ).
    so by the time those whith high ping see them and send the info back to the server for a combo thy will not get it becous the server side tells them those cards or the time for that combo is gone alreaddy .
     
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  11. Vendetta Beretta

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    "Prince Guni [LIBERTY], post: 223596, member: 32903"]Vendetta, I think Trenyc provided a good explanation above.

    So, to sum up some of the recent discussion, some of the issues we are facing:

    1. Random cards may require synchronous client-server communication (and confirmations) which make queuing and server side predictions harder. Which in turn might give people with long pings a hard time. Since I don't know the implementation details I can only say: whoever is programming this should really take a close look how well long pings and lag spikes can be tolerated.

    2. Requirements such as LOS, positioning and such are very unforgiving to any sort of lag. I would at least suggest to fall back on something less strict if pings go up.
    Having a static icon is no different than using a glyph dealt to you from a deck. You just click them.

    3. Key binding such as CTRL+[number] to click away slugs (or right mouse button forcing the player to stop moving view/camera) are annoying to normal players and not a problem for people with special gaming gear. So we have annoyance and a balancing issue.
    I agree that they need to tweek the number of slugs a person with heavy armor has. Other than that you shouldn't have to worry about slugs. I didn't have slugs in my deck unless I was in heavy armor.

    4. Some players might not enjoy being forced to constantly mess with slugs and changing skills. In PvP it makes it hard to focus on the actual combat action and in PvE it may just get tiring.
    I had the opposite experience. I'm a veteran PvPer and I thought this system was great, and I think PvP is already better in this game than it was in UO.

    5. If you don't know which skills you will be able to use you can also not plan any tactics based on specific skills.
    Again I had a basic plan of attack and it worked wonderfully for me, and I'm a very strategic player. Let me emphasize STRATEGIC. I'm not a fool when it comes to analyzing and developing a big picture perspective of a problem. Perhaps you should just give the deck another chance?

    6. Some people reported that they just used whatever skills became available in their combat bar. To me, that does not sound like tactics. It more sounds like the system randomly deciding how the combat is played out and the player just using whatever moves the system gives him.
    Some people also don't know that if you put 5 cards of a skill in a 20 glyph deck you have a 1 in 4 chace of one of those cards being dealt at a given time. Then imagine having 7 slots open. Chances are you will have more than one copy of the card you need. Also some other skills tend to over lap. It is realistic to change up your attack. Nobody throws a right hook every singe puch. That wouldn't be realistic. In real life throwing a right hook every single punch will make you predictable, and get you knocked out fast.

    7. Lack of an automatic camera means that the mouse has to be used almost all the time to move the camera/view. That makes it unavailable for other uses, such as clicking away slugs, unless the player takes a break from moving.
    Some how I managed to defeate most of my opponents. If I had to run I would run, and I was able to turn around, run backwards, and still get my attacks off without using my logitech mouse special buttons. I felt more control in this initial alpha release than I ever did in UO PvP.

    8. Many players locked some cards and/or put multiple copies of the same few skills in their decks to regain some predictability of skill availability. They often ended up playing with 4, 5, maybe 6 skills/powers per deck total. This, however, totally removes the stated benefit of random card decks to allow players to use more skills with less short keys / slots in the UI. I also ended up playing with less skills/powers than what I would usually be using during combat in other games.

    Yes, a player that locks in skills will ultimately be at a disadvantage. It should be a bigger disadvantage when they realized the locked skill (is a noble skill), and cannot be combined with other skills to form combos later. So that will be a problem for those who want to "PvP" with noble skills. Apart from PvP it shouldn't be any problem. I really think you will need to use the deck system if you want to engage in any long term PvPing.

    Also the fact that the deck system already has an advantage over the static icons should be an indicator that the deck system actually works.
     
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  12. Vendetta Beretta

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    Even if the cards are server side, they will be transmitted to the client at the right time, where they will then remain available to the player for a considerable period of time. Even with lag (not 2 second lag which is basically the same as being disconnected), a person should be able to have their cards queued up to them at a certain period of time, and remain there for a period of time based on their focus tree. If you have your focus set up right you shouldn't have any problem with your deck even with lag.

    THE PROBLEM WOULD BE THE LAG ITSELF. That's the point. You're talking about a lag problem here not a deck problem.
     
  13. Trenyc

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    Lag is a problem, but it's a prevalent problem in the industry. You can't always fix lag, so you design systems in such a way that they are tolerant of lag. Everyone is aware that the problem is lag. They're just trying to point out how much of a problem it can be under the current design.
     
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  14. Vendetta Beretta

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    They could resolve that by queuing up the next 5 cards in advance. So when you click off a card your client already has the next 5 from the server, and it just replaces it when it needs to. Would that help? I don't know because I don't design games. It seems like you should be able to do ok if you had 2 to 5 cards queued up already.

    If cheating really becomes a problem (for instance a person figures out a way to manipulate the cards to be exactly what he always wants), perhaps there could be a simple tally of the glpys that were dealt, and if the person uses more moves of a particular kind than he was dealt the server should be able to assertain that he was dealt 3 fireballs, why did he cast 5? Again I'm not an expert in gaming, but I think a server could do that.
     
  15. Trenyc

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    The server can do that. But if that queue is sent in blocks to the client, each skill use still has to be validated. Elsewise, it'll be hacked. (That would be super easy to hack, too.)
     
  16. Vendetta Beretta

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    That seems reasonable. It also seems reasonable that a player can be flagged over time for violating the game's terms of service. If a person is playing more of a particular card than he/she is dealt, the server could pick it up over time. The validation could just be are they using more of a particular skill than was ever dealt to him or her. The server will know how much it dealt, and it should know how many times a skill is used in return.

    However I'm not a game developer, maybe there is an easier way to validate something like that.
     
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  17. wmidgard

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    yeah its stil strange that on one hand thy tell us thy do not want a twitch game and then add so much "twitch" stuff to it. ( dodging ranged attacks,fighting wile running backwards, using pillars or other stuff to hide behind)
     
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  18. Vendetta Beretta

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    I didn't find that to be too fast twitch? I would think a fighting game like one of the new street fighters that require precise combos would be considered fast twitch fast reaction type games. It required a bit of skill yes, but it wasn't like trying to pull off a 10 hit combination that takes you an hour straight to practice, and still it doesn't come out right. That is more fast twitch. Asking us to move our shield quickly to block an attack high low or in the middle would be fast twitch. Turning around and running backwards was kind of fluid to me. I was able to keep relativly calm, and I have a bit of a problem with anxiety. If it was too much it would have effected me for sure.

    Actually waiting for one of the fighting tournaments gave me far more anxiety than runing backwards. Going to a busy shopping line at the store gives me more anxiety than this combat system. As for fast twitch I think they did a good job not making it too difficult.
     
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  19. Saosis

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    I don't like twitch combat much myself, but fighting while running backwards and taking advantage of LoS has been possible in most MMOGs (all?) I played...
    Is dodging ranged attacks confirmed? Any link would be nice, thanks. :)

    So far I like the card system. I can see myself taking advantage of the focus skills to fit it to my (less twitchy) playstyle. Actually already worked on that during R8.
     
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