Arrows, arrows, and more arrows

I like the idea of conjured arrows & bolts - with the stipulation that they have limited duration

Actually went around sometime back in R10 or R11 with no arrows in my inventory, honestly thought the shot glyphs were all you needed. And since these were spaced out in intervals, my avatar had a lot of practice running around to keep the mob at a distance

 

Another option is to give people who go deep enough into the Ranged tree the ability to build stands high up in trees , rocks or any elevated spot in the landscape :



This plus a tailoring option to make camouflaged suits & leather armor should give archers that needed edge in PvE or PvP combat. And the ability to lay hidden traps - much of the archer's advantage lies in being able to prepare the combat grounds in his/her favor.

 

Interesting ideas, Numa Of course, you would probably only get off one or two low damage shots (and spring one trap) before your foe(s) pinpoint your location and concentrate their attacks on you

 

ghillie suits...oh the possibilities.. in owlshead, they'd have to have ankh's and hot tubs and chess pieces on 'em..

 

I am more interested in the trap idea. Player made traps! now that is something. Conjuring arrows is already there in some of the magic trees so that is kind of a mute point, but traps, yes beautiful, diabolical traps hehe, I can get into that.

 

Some thoughts to contribute to the conversation:

I'm all for lowering that weight of the arrows, and I would be truly surprised if Port doesn't agree and change this. IMO, the reason it's been at 1lb a piece was because it was a placeholder to say "this item needs weight". I always assumed that the weight values were added early on as ballpark figures of what they'd need to be once encumberance hit.

Now, looking at archers subjectively, I was always left with the idea that a good archer was a prepared one. It seems to me that a potential strength of the bow-fighters would be to have more they could do before combat (Numa's trap idea supports this!). This is not to say that archers' skills should be about spending 10 minutes setting up for a 10-second combat, but it seems like a lot of folks are expecting Ranged combat to be some equivalent of Legolas-clones or Old West-style gunfights. Combat isn't nearly that sudden; we're not playing Street Fighter, this is a RPG.

Granted, the game should be fun, but there's also a certain satisfaction to dealing with the challenges we read about in stories. 'Running of out arrows' is frustrating, but if you were PvPing an archer, it would be a completly valid strategy to stick to a defensive stance/formation while you waited out your opponent's ammo stock. Not to mention that it does force players to consider the 'best build'. Part of the reason I love the classless system is because it actually showcases the strengths (and weaknesses!!) of both 'Pure' builds and blended ones. While some balancing is needed, a limited supply of ammo has always been a classic drawback of ranged fighters, and I don't think we should move away from that.

One solution I thought of early on would be to remove the ammo cost to Ranged Auto-Attacks. When I melee, I notice that I rely on auto-attacks as a much-needed sustained damage, and removing the ammo cost would mean you'd only be monitoring ammo consumption as it relates to your skills. It even opens up another skill consideration: does your build favor increased Sustained Damage or better Specialized Attacks? In terms of implementation, this could easily be an Innate Skill place early in the skill tree, or just make it a part of ranged combat in general.

On a last note, I love the camouflage idea. Reminds me of a friend in UO who dressed up in grey robes so enemy factions would confuse him for a ghost >.<

 

what do you think shoudl be on the other side, for balance.. thats the drawback, so what does the archer get when they DO have the ammo? more damage per attack (not autoattack, the skills)? stacking bleeds for massive damage?

oh gods yes. that would fix many things. - keep the arrows but make them decorations you can actually place with the quivers you can't place yet.

a Guildie of mine, Jofish used to wear what he called 'puke green' to stand by the trees, for that very same reason. - i remember seeing that and trying it myself, and it worked VERY well.

 

I've been thinking on this some...

On one hand, it stands to reason that you would add additional effects when you have ammo. I was reminded of the "coatings" used by archers in the Monster Hunter series. However, it seems like doing that would defeat the purpose of having Skills in the first place, since we already have secondary effects from skills and combos.

Maybe you can present effects that are debuffing stats that haven't been considered in our current skillsets? For example, some Focus/Focus Regen draining effects, or reducing stun/root resistance, perhaps even some "acid arrows" that could cause all attacks for bypass a % of armor for a time. You could attach these to the arrows themselves (if you want specialized ones), or make them additional effects from Skills/Combos that cost arrows (much like a reagent cost).

IMO, the most efficient way to do it would be to have a 'toggle' ability that would start consuming the arrows in return for the extra effect... but since the deck system doesn't seem to mesh well with 'toggle' concept, this may be unrealistic.

All the same, I agree with your premise. If arrows are kept, there should be some benefit from it. Magic-users use reagents to get a wide variety of spells, so archers should get something for their trouble.

PS - Glad you like the Auto-Attack idea. It just makes sense in my mind.

 

If we are going to continue using counted arrows, than I am in favor of this system. However, I don't think that you should lose arrows that miss. Instead, arrows should have a chance to break. The chance of the arrow breaking is dependent on the quality of the arrows.

 

do you tie strings to your arrows, so you can magically pull them back to your quiver if they miss?

i think we should go to the skill system.. the higher level you have yoru archery, the less you miss, and the more you pick up from the corpses based on how often you hit them..maybe 60-80 percent of the ones that landed stay on the corpses.

but i think the ones that missed, you don't get back.

that way, early on you have to carry more, but later on you won't.

this again presumes we go to a skill system where 'you do X, you level up X,' not 'leveling up Y and X and Z and B and 1 and Q...etc'

that skill system just sounds better and better as time goes on.. i hope we switch to, or at least add it to, the current systems.

 

No, but you can pick them back up when the fight is over.

There really isn't an ideal way to do this system. It makes archery really expensive, which is why I dropped it.

 

you certainly are right about the expense - so far, more expensive than any magery i can come up with. more than an archer can afford, really, on their own when they remove certain aspects of the game when it goes live... for example: six boats at the end of chillblain.

 

i think this has also been said -b ut the weight of the arrows.. please fix it BEFORE adding encumberance.

even though i was all for adding encumberance at the time of the 12 hour telethon for r13..mostly it was for the hilarity that would ensure if that is added the day before the next release. it was a close second that i wanted people to realize how horrible the archery, and magery, are and how drastically that single aspect needs to be reduces, to make them viable "classes" at all.

 

So, I went back and read all the posts again, and here I sit, clenching my teeth, hoping R14 gives us some damage to go with our abilities. I think that one of the things that is getting my goat is what appears to be either misses, or very low damage. I'm maxed in archery, I really shouldn't be missing if I'm standing still, and for that matter, shouldn't really be missing when I'm moving either.....maybe not do as much damage, but I'm at my max in archery, how in the hell am I missing??

I started as an archer a few releases ago, only an archer, got to the low 30's. Then our last wipe happened. I went back to archery, until low teens or so. It was slow. Decided I'd try an axer. My levels came quickly, so quickly that I decided to see what I could do as an axer for a bit. Got to the low 40's in less than half the time it took me to get into the 30's with an archer (watched my time spent playing via steam, so I know it's not exact and I wasn't really trying to prove anything to myself or anyone else). I know, SotA builds differed and there were changes between what was and what is, but it shouldn't be that glaringly obvious.

I'm hoping as well that arrows don't cause me to be unable to pickup loot/skins/lumber as I kill/collect stuff. Have to wait and see what happens with the release I guess.

For me, and me only, the one thing I'm not really worried about is the cost of arrows. It would be nice if they came down in price, but it's not really necessary, again, for me. After a short time of collecting leather I make a chest piece or two and I have the money to buy whatever arrows I need. Of course if I can't carry them into the field, they won't do any good in the bank! Besides, if things are the same this release as it was the last time after a wipe, I'll try archery, then go to an axer, make my levels, gain some money, buy a lot and a house and when all that is in place, I'll switch back over to an archer for fun....and minimal profit......I hope, really really hope, that it's different this time.

 

I keep reading about arrows, but are there crossbow bolts in this game? If yes, where can I buy some? Thanks.

 

Yes, climbing trees, rocks, in general would be cool. Would be a stealth/rogue skill rather than a ranged skill in particular, but useful for archery.

In R14, I've was hitting a helpless elf fighter while standing in the middle of the river, where he couldn't chase me. Elves are afraid of water or something. For some reason, his hp didn't go down that much, or he regenerated it. I encountered this when I went up on land and started hitting him with my sword, so I don't think it was a safeguard against my archery tactics, though.

 

i've seen that too, they weren't in combat and regenerate the same way we do when we put our weapons away. at least thats my take on it.

 

Why not just have the archery skills do whatever it is they do with any kind of arrow, but the type of arrow you use has other small and varying effects. I'm not familiar with what sorts of arrows currently exist in-game, so I'll toss out random examples of what I mean.

Standard Arrow: Base Damage/Effects
Arrow 1: Bonus vs Light Armour
Arrow 2: Bonus vs Medium Armour
Arrow 3: Bonus vs Heavy Armour
<Fill-in-the-Blank> Arrow: Adds some <Fill-in-the Blank> Damage (Fire/Poison/Etc)
And additional such similar ideas which I would have if I had any idea what all the arrow types are.

Then archery could be the same as swords (at least if I'm understanding things correctly) where what you make the hilt out of adds some small bonuses, what you make the blade out of has some small bonuses, etc.. Except in this case it would be the Bow adding some bonuses and then the arrows adding some bonuses.. You might usually just stick with normal arrows until you're heading into some situation where you know one type or the other of specialized arrows would come in handy. Fighting some enemies with a weakness to fire, or rounding up the posse to go kill a bunch of plate-clad PKers, whatever. This way the different arrow types are useful, but not required for you to be carrying some of them around at all times.

As I said, don't know too much about how archery currently is, just judging from what I read, so any of this may or may not have been useful.

 

i want a healing arrow. you aim at a group mate, and it lands at hteir feet bursting out an alchemists healing splash potion with a small radius.
similar with poison arrows, oil slicks (for mobs to slip on and mages to catch the ground on fire)

 

What i remember from UO is that the damage of bow vs melee when at grandmaster was a world of difference.
Where an archer could shoot and scoot wearing nothing but leather (or just shorts at that) the PvP oriented horseback halbert mage would have to stand still to hit you.
When shooting you could easily take down between 30 to 50 health of a full plate wearing adversary.
You had to have anatomy up (to GM aswell) to do that amount of damage tho.
I think the best thing to do is have different types of bows and a few different ype of arrow heads, but nothing magical.