card system: who likes it?

I think one of the problems this game faces is too many options with not enough clear direction one way.


I'm not just "going with the flow", I legitimately like it...I think it is still a work in progress and it will take a lot of people time to adjust.

 

@ThurisazSheol My fundamental problem is i'm a twitch reaction kind of player. I want to see what the other mob/person is doing and have the power to react with skills that are concrete and at my disposal. I don't want to stare at a user interface waiting and deciding on what is going to be handed to me. I don't like being out of control and that is how this system make me feel. I also HATE having to check UI every 5 seconds to see what skill is up when I should be paying attention to the opponent or terrain. I want as little UI as possible and this system is the complete opposite of that. So that is my point of view on the deck system so you know what I'm crying about. Now to kind of answer your questions. The deck system is just an option right now because you have the ability to lock the deck but one is still hindered losing points in focus reduction cost. I'm sure that will be reduced but it's still saying..."Hey, play our way or pay the price." I'm not sure if there is a way to redesign the UI in this system so you wouldn't have to look at it constantly. It's inherit when the cards are random. I would like to see the old UO way or even a current MMO way of doing combat. I don't have many ideas on how to improve this system because the foundation, in my eyes, is crippled. The only thing I can think of is to make the combos you get from having certain skills come in as random. Not the skills. Make the randomness a bonus and not a fundamental pillar.

 

I agree there are many who legitimately like it. I'm aiming for the fence sitters. Although, i'm pretty sure i'm beating a dead horse. That being said...my next hope is what you point out and that this it is a work in process. Maybe I can ***** loud enough that something might change in my favor.

 

Being "negative" is not negative.
If I were a Dev I would pay attention to posts like this for sure...........

Facts:

1.- We are at early development stage, is the right time to express our concerns.

2.- Its pre-alpha and we all understand what we have is not finished system.

3.- This is not a like/dislike contest, people expressing their concerns want to improve the game not to destroy it.

4.- Card (aka glyph) system is promising on paper, it has a great potential, but it also has many drawbacks.

5.- Most people do like the concept but don't like actual game mechanics.


So the challenge here is creating a real time action combat game with the complexity of a turn based Card game.
Can we have the best of both worlds?

For sure we all want this to succeed, but something people tend to forget is that voices expressing why they do like the idea
are as important as voices expressing why they don't like it.

 

OMG yes this...

 

@Licemeat, I take it your main concern is the static decks loss of extra features the random deck provides. implying that they are trying to force one to choose a specific option.

i think of it this way - the penalties for using the traditional set are two-fold.
1. the other is new, and they need it to be used and tested, so it can be fixed from its current not-quite-right form. for balance, so one isn't greater than the other without having its own drawbacks. knowing this, it makes sense to stiffen the penalties of the traditional style during the testing process. not many people like change, so if there were not penalties most simply would not use it, and it wouldn't get the stress testing it needs...and (some of) those opposed to it would simply complain more, even when they haven't been a part in breaking it down and rebuilding it for the better.

2. the new system gives you more benefits, but the fact that it is random and not static, and the skills are not always available the MOMENT their timers are up, is a major drawback to the system - which is WHY they let you stack in the case wehre the not-so-random draws actually come up. one major drawback for one major boon. without great risk, there cannot be great reward.

that's a key component on the different systems in place currently. comfort zones of tried and true vs risk of not having a needed skill available at all times. - there is an undercurrent all over the globe I've seen in many different games - having 80+ skills available on screen at any moment, being able to choose from any of them the moment their timers are up..just isn't fun anymore. THAT setup is one of many MMO Tropes that is slowly eroding the quality of the mmo scene - and incidentally is also where the phrase "faceroll" comes from (i love that phrase...), and THAT setup is what i feel the devs are trying to get away from with this new system.

ESO fought it too, with only having five skills available at any given time in a classless system. but even that, i don't think is enough of a step away, because it ONLY lets you use those five skills/spells. and during combat, they are hard-locked in place. - the card system strives to resolve that issue too, introducing the "random draws".

i've found myself focusing less on the bar and more on my toon and the environment - unlike most people it seems, as they all seem to be doing the opposite. - only two games i focused more on the terrain, environment, and opposing force, were terra and gw2, because they had a more active-combat system than we do here. i was a warrior in terra, with a role of avoidance tank utilizing on dodgerolls and skills in avoidance, which actively taunted the mobs even more.

yes, the system isn't working perfectly now. not by a long shot, most of us can agree on that at least. but it does address some fundamental flaws in the old system(s) of the past, and THAT is why I applaud it.

 

Isn't that true for all games though? I mean, what do we hear about games usually? The complaints. Look how people still complain about what they think "ruined UO."

But SotA is in development. That's the time to talk. Whining after the fact will do no good except maybe for a future game.

If a game doesn't need "fixing," you probably won't hear compliments, but mostly the complaints. It's not just negative people who hang in these forums, waiting to tear the game apart. They are avid players, who really want this game to succeed, otherwise they wouldn't waste their time complaining. I know I wouldn't.

 

Well said. Agreed.

For me, if I click my left mouse button to swing a sword or cast a spell, I expect it to react.

A turned based system works, but this is not even that. The enemy can keep beating on you (the npcs anyway) but you have to wait for the cooldown to even swing a sword. That's not turn-based. It's being penalized. If they made it a true turn-based system, it might work.

I can't even imagine how this would work in PvP. It's frustrating enough with NPCs for me to want to avoid combat altogether.

Now I think I'll find the threads on this topic so that I can not tear down this one.

 

Aye... this is being derailed from what OP had intended. But..being the last word kind of person... I will leave my last thought. Goals: I want to defeat an enemy. I want to build a chair. I will use my skill magic and my tool fireball to inflict damage on my enemy. I will use my skill carpentry and my tool saw to build a chair. It's the same formula. Why do we not extend this deck system to crafting? Because it'd be ridiculous. @ThurisazSheol I appreciate the conversation but, ultimately, I think I will just need to be patience and hope it's not just different but it's better. I certainly don't see eye to eye with the dev team or a lot of other players on this particular issue... but how many awesome games have I made before(answer: zero)... so what do I know? Perhaps this thread will recover. What I do like about the deck system.... yelling curse words followed by "slugs" all the time and having my wife wonder what i'm talking about.

 

my wife has certainly given me strange looks too, after a gaming session here.. asking me if i'm really having fun or not.. *chuckle* - of course i am, or i wouldn't be here still.

hm.. extending the deck system to crafting.. they ARE talking about bringing in crafting 'events' into the crafting process... i'd like to see how it pans out, and how the crafting skill trees look too.

i know i know: "Thuri..be patient young padawan, you will soon find out." - shaddup thuri, i want it now because i'm excited about it. nothing more nothing less.



anyone else have any comments on what aspects they like, or suggestions on how a portion they do not like could be handled better?

 

Long thread already, but I will weigh in with a few points. I like the deck system, the idea has a lot of promise. I enjoy using it as it is now, but improvements are needed.

What I like: I feel the element of randomness makes combat more interesting and engaging. I would hate it if combat was just clicking to hack and slash as quickly as possible. The deck system gives satisfaction and makes me feel more like there is skill involved, maybe only illusory though at the moment - I will elaborate on this after a bit. I like customizing the deck and choosing the skills and gear to match a given style.

However, obviously there are many things that are still needed to make the system great. The element of randomness does not make a huge difference either way at the moment. It does not make much of a difference what glyphs you choose, in my experience. Often my auto attacks do as much or more damage than the glyph attacks.

Also it doesn't seem to matter much what glyphs I choose (my experience is from level 30 Blades and level 41 Polearms), against weaker enemies I tend to pick attacks more carefully and stack combos, but against liches etc. I usually just select whatever glyph comes up. This is one of the symptoms of the basic problem that combat is mostly about DPS at the moment. While polearms school has attacks that can trip and root the enemy, those do not make a huge difference. In PvE, I haven't noticed any advantage in armor piercing attacks either, not even against opponents that look like they are armored.

I will like the deck system more when there are real and noticeable advantages to selecting my moves carefully, and maybe when timing etc. has an effect. With polearms, when my opponent trips or loses balance, and a glyph or combo comes up for a decisive 'finish him' move, if I execute it fast enough there should be a high chance of large critical damage etc... An agile opponent with enough focus left could roll away and hit me back from the side when I'm unguarded.

I don't use defensive moves because they don't seem to have much benefit, nor do I watch my distance: sometimes I take advantage of the better reach of polearms, but there doesn't seem to be any penalty for being too close to the opponent.

In summary, at the moment it doesn't really take much skill to win in combat, at least in PvE. Just grind and level up. Even auto attacks can take down opponents just fine. Against tough opponents, the game is just to chip hp away fast enough to kill before dying myself. Most attacks feel the same. With polearms, the only attack I use with any consideration is the sweeping attack that can hit many enemies. In the heat of the battle, I rarely stack glyphs more than 3 deep: there aren't obvius benefits for the effort and time. At level 41 I rarely run out of focus, and two quick single attacks seem to do more damage than one stacked attack, and it takes concentration to manage the stacks.

Finally I would like to have the glyphs a bit larger, closer to center of view and transparent. It is distracting having to look down to see which number has which glyph (I use keyboard only for managing the glyphs). And of course multiple alternatives can be offered to deck combat, if they are all balanced.

In short, more options for customizing the combat style that have real effects and a balance of advantages and disadvantages, and a better UI, and I'm happy with decks.

 

I'm was a fencesitter on this issue. Neither like nor dislike. However since fencesitters are being called...

The future activity of deck combat would probably? get tedious, simply due to a lack of challenge during the combat activity itself. It requires some planning beforehand but after that...

Since I'm on about combat, I find that combat is not responsive enough. Everything I do takes place a while later. (actually a lot of the game does that). While we can run around to avoid hits, you actually have to move fast enough & really far enough to avoid a hit. Coming to spells & arrows, they're all heat seekers. I'm surprised Novia had that kind of tech.

Perhaps devs could consider some "fun" factor for any activity. Why fight, or mine, or chop wood? Currently its quite repetitive & players do it for the end result (XP/reagents), not for the fun of it. If players are going to spend a considerable amount of time doing the activity, then the act of doing it has to be enjoyable/exciting/rewarding.

Since almost all RPG's require a fair to large amount of combat, it makes sense to create an enjoyable combat system. ONLY as an example: I've enjoyed the combat system of Diablo 3, because it challenges me to:
(i) build a good "deck" by choosing skills that will work effectively together
(ii) build your weapons & armor in relation to your "deck" so as to maximise combat effectiveness
(iii) think & coordinate my hands/keyboard/mouse while in combat to overcome foes
Its pretty good rinse & repeat fun but is it suitable for Sota? However, if Sota could have the 3 factors above, I think I would LOVE IT! Although such entertaining combat might overshadow the RPG element of Sota.

Hmm.. I may have come across as contradictory...

 

Thanks LM. I think your admission of trolling in the second post is admirable, and I would hope that people would be more willing to accept dissenting opinions when presented amicably. Your image was, I thought, valid and a bit humorous -- always danger in being misunderstood with humour, though.

 

wow, nice to see less draconian responses

 

On one hand you said the random deck is a disadvantage and on the other you seem to disregard that is being "balanced" against focus cost. If you get equal power with reduced risks, that is the very definition of OP.

I find the random deck is synonymous with gambling at a casino. You get teased because it plays well sometimes and disappointed when it does not draw in favor. So, just like gambling, some like it and others would prefer to go with a more steady cash flow. However, if you don't play the slots, you can't win the jackpot. In this context, your post is just like asking a casino for free money and telling them you wont play.

When the game is balanced, a fixed deck should be close to the mean level of the random deck. However, I do think the combos should be available in some form to the fixed deck (perhaps like a proc) since the lack of combos is more than just about DPS output.

 

Maybe a deck system for crafting would be interesting. You have to click on random cards in order to build a chair. The cards determine what tool you use and how effective you are in crafting. It could be an interesting minigame - gambling while crafting a chair

 

That reminds me of crafting on Everquest 2. Tradeskills had their own set of abilities and mana and there was a mini game you went through when crafting items. There was a durability meter you had to keep high while increasing the progress meter. Certain events would pop up that you had to counteract or it would damage the item and depending on how well you did you could make pristine versions of an item that had better stats or make extra or you could completely fail it and not make the item and some of the materials would be refunded.

 

that was one of my favorite crafting systems. kept you invested in the outcome.

 

I'm another fence sitter. I like the *concept* of the decks, but I don't really love or hate them yet. So right now I just have them locked to get through beta.
I think eventually I'll become a big fan, once there are lots of guides and tutorials for me to use.

 

I'm not a fan of the card system, but I know of others who like it. All those hearthstone players out there love card systems.