Four Years (or, Why free passes re: development have to stop)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Canterbury, Mar 11, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Ravicus Domdred

    Ravicus Domdred Avatar

    Messages:
    3,715
    Likes Received:
    9,055
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Get In MY BELLY!
    Thank you for the clarification. Surely you can see where some one might take it the wrong way though.
     
  2. Jaanelle DeJure

    Jaanelle DeJure Avatar

    Messages:
    1,854
    Likes Received:
    4,283
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Sure, no problem and yes I most certainly can see how it could be taken the wrong way. Unfortunately, the nature of forum communication makes it difficult to discern to whom or to what post a particular response is directed.

    And of course, without the benefit of nonverbal cues, it is near impossible to know the tone in which something was stated.
     
  3. Ravicus Domdred

    Ravicus Domdred Avatar

    Messages:
    3,715
    Likes Received:
    9,055
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Get In MY BELLY!
    I agree, its very hard to convey emotion over text :)
     
  4. Zerk2012

    Zerk2012 Avatar

    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I think the OP had a bunch of legitimate comments.
    In my opinion their spending way to much time adding eye candy instead of making the game more playable.
    I stopped playing and now just log in daily to get the 500G and EXP.
     
  5. Womby

    Womby Avatar

    Messages:
    3,301
    Likes Received:
    12,206
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Location:
    South Australia
    DISCLAIMER: This is not a response to anyone's post, and is not directed to any specific person.

    If you feel you are being "shut down" because someone disagrees with you, then your feelings are misplaced. The forum is a venue for any and all game related opinions that are politely expressed and follow the forum rules. If you publicly complain that others are trying to shut you down, you could just as erroneously be accused of trying to shut them down. Both views are wrong. Nobody is trying to shut anyone down. Everyone is simply expressing their opinions. You know - free speech. There is absolutely nothing wrong with publicly disagreeing with another person's opinion, provided the views expressed on both sides address the opinions in the post, and not the poster, and follow the forum rules. If your post has merit, it will withstand any amount of opposing opinion.
     
    Aldo, Hornpipe, Alexander and 4 others like this.
  6. SabeSr

    SabeSr Avatar

    Messages:
    459
    Likes Received:
    916
    Trophy Points:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Paradise, Florida
    The difference between SOTA and many other games that have come out such as WOW and the like is similar to that commercial on radio I'm sure we all hear...

    "How to flip houses using other peoples money"

    As I've said before, they're still at least a year away from being ready to advertise it to the public... especially lacking quests.
     
  7. yarnevk

    yarnevk Avatar

    Messages:
    402
    Likes Received:
    804
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Then why use general analogies that do not apply to the topic, because you are in this thread implying that complainers should leave and new gamers are too lazy too read by your comparisons. If it was not directed at anyone in the topic, then there is no point in bringing it up, it is a passive/aggressive way of communicating "but I was not talking about you, so I did no wrong'. It is simply a veiled way of dismissing what the poster has to say.

    The topic is about forum communication, it is not about how long the game has been in development; but rather simply stated that after four years of development don't you think we should move past characterizing those who criticize the game in attempt to stifle their voice, especially when the dev staff says they welcome criticism.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
  8. yarnevk

    yarnevk Avatar

    Messages:
    402
    Likes Received:
    804
    Trophy Points:
    43
    But what it will not withstand is the moderator. While people could simply say they disagree but we are entitled to our opinion, they instead attempt to belittle posters in an attempt to get the thread closed thru heated argument. The OP is saying if people say they do not think quests are ready (or whatever the topic is), they do not need to be told this is a game in development so don't post about something unfinished, when the devs have specifically said they welcome this type of feedback. There is most certainly a side of argument that does and does not get you moderated, as I have made arguments on both sides. When I was posting about how bad the quests was the threads got closed, when I was posting in support of the stone horse the thread stayed, despite no change in my behavior. I did not post here for months because of the inconsistent moderation.
     
  9. Womby

    Womby Avatar

    Messages:
    3,301
    Likes Received:
    12,206
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Location:
    South Australia
    It is true that many threads are permanently closed. I won't comment on that (forum rules prevent me from doing so). I have no objection when threads are closed temporarily to allow people to cool off, and that interval used to delete posts that violate forum rules. That seems like a sensible approach. A point that I would make is that it takes two to argue. Better not to respond to, and especially not quote abusive posts. That way they are the only ones that get censored. Intemperate posts have low credibility and attract moderators.

    EDIT:
    As for people telling you that your views are wrong because the game isn't finished - they are entitled to say that, because it is not an attack on you personally. It is an attack on your opinion. You cannot expect everyone in a public forum to be supportive, and there is no rule that says that posted opinions have to be correct. The only requirement is that they obey the forum rules.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
  10. smack

    smack Avatar

    Messages:
    7,081
    Likes Received:
    15,294
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Yes, it's in my .sig. SotA is taking in on average $2.7M per year in crowdfunding.
     
  11. Jaanelle DeJure

    Jaanelle DeJure Avatar

    Messages:
    1,854
    Likes Received:
    4,283
    Trophy Points:
    113
    In my opinion, the quests ARE substandard. They are not currently a compelling reason to play. Combat is unbalanced. PvP offers little in terms of risk/reward. I could go on...

    In my opinion, I *also* think the devs are doing the best they can, given the resources at hand. I believe they intend to deliver on as many kickstarter promises as possible. Again, I could go on...

    Now... Which am I? A hater or a fanboy? Ready.. set.. go!
     
    Salix, Dantuin, Sir Cabirus and 5 others like this.
  12. Jaanelle DeJure

    Jaanelle DeJure Avatar

    Messages:
    1,854
    Likes Received:
    4,283
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Perhaps you are new to online forums, but there is no rule that every post in a thread must directly respond to an OP, nor should there be an assumption on behalf of a thread author that every response is either a direct response to what they said or a veiled "passive aggressive" comment obliquely aimed at them while disguised as a general comment.

    The fact of the matter is that I have made ample criticisms of this game all throughout this forum. Moreover, not once did I perceive that my voice was being "stifled" by other forum members, or by the dev team.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
  13. yarnevk

    yarnevk Avatar

    Messages:
    402
    Likes Received:
    804
    Trophy Points:
    43
    $2.7M/#30 staff = $90k. Most biz have a least a 2x overhead in office, benefits, licenses, admins, etc. which brings to $45k is rather low average for technical programmers, but figure artists and managers are on either side of that average or they run a very efficient office . They must have RG or other private investment because I cannot see how that keeps them afloat. Certainly a low number for a game, they are getting a lot of leverage using Unity assets. Other games that have programmed in Unreal/Unity that make all their own assets - for example Conan Exiles is being funded by FunCom this year for $10-15M of development after their successful entry into Early Access.

    Here is another number, $2.7M/$180/yr for the goal of achieving store funding equivalent to a Wow description requires 15,000 active yearlong players, clearly we are nowhere near that number of players so it is the rich minority that is keeping the game afloat.
     
  14. yarnevk

    yarnevk Avatar

    Messages:
    402
    Likes Received:
    804
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Then those who post about substandard quests should be allowed to critique that without 'fanboys' rushing to get the thread closed so that it falls away from the main page.

    Make a suggestion on how to fix combat, make a suggestion how to fix quests, make a suggestion how to fix PVP because if you assume the devs are doing the best they can four years in; then that is what brings us to where we are. What other games have you played that have systems that you liked or disliked? That is the point the OP is making that now is the time to post these things, for the good of the game. Those criticizing the game are not trying to harm the game, they are not complainers that should leave, they are trying to save the game before they decide to 'release' into a NoMansSky disaster.

    Now is not the time for complacency in assuming the devs can do this themselves with a closed development process, the devs are doing open development for this very reason to get feedback.

    So where are we now? After a free trial 'trial' months before RG says ep1 needs to release, devs find out from outside forums that quests are substandard and decided to rewrite the opening scene. RG himself discovers that he cannot even follow the questing and figure out where to go next. The point of the OP is how come they did not get that message from this forum, in time to fix the problems before the free trial?

    So if someone suggest something to fix it, suggest OK that is an interesting idea not sure how it will work, but here is how they did it in this other game that I played that I am more familiar with how it worked. Have a dialogue about how to fix the problems. Don't say someone should not critique a game that is early access because it is not done yet. The devs are doing early access so that we can help them find and fix problems before 'release'.

    I put release in quotes because the game will continue to get new features in monthly updates, release means they think the story is done enough to start advertising, giving away media/streamer/tuber keys, trying to get new players into the game because they need to increase population 100x more than it is now.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
  15. jammaplaya

    jammaplaya Avatar

    Messages:
    1,141
    Likes Received:
    2,001
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You don't need to send me notifications. I trust your judgement. You were correct that my remark was a personal attack. My apologies to the OP! My bad!
     
  16. Jaanelle DeJure

    Jaanelle DeJure Avatar

    Messages:
    1,854
    Likes Received:
    4,283
    Trophy Points:
    113
    A. I actually agree with most of what you've said here. I still maintain it is fallacious to label anybody who argues with a criticism as a "fanboy".

    B. As I've explained multiple times previously, I was not replying to the OP but to a comment the thread author made later on, and to comments made by other posters.

    C. The thread author and I have worked out our differences of opinion by PM, and so there is no purpose in you jumping in to "defend" them against my so-called "passive-aggressive" remarks. And for the record, they proved quite capable of "defending" themselves without your unasked for assistance.

    But thanks for your concern trolling. (Yes that was sarcasm.) Cheers!
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
    Berek and Roycestein Kaelstrom like this.
  17. Chrystoph Reis

    Chrystoph Reis Avatar

    Messages:
    940
    Likes Received:
    1,873
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    Most games to date have movie budgets... as I'm too lazy to google them all... here is a list of the most expensive.
    https://mmos.com/editorials/most-expensive-mmorpgs-ever-developed
     
  18. Frederick Glasgow

    Frederick Glasgow Avatar

    Messages:
    736
    Likes Received:
    2,068
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I guess using my example has caused you to overthink it. Lets say for example that I am not happy with taming. So I go to the forums and say,"I think taming is too involved,there are too many talents attributed to it,bla bla bla". Now I say, "I have played game A,B,C and their taming seems easier, more fluid and it makes a lot of sense." I offered a issue I had and a suggestion to look at to fix it. Was that too hard to do? Did it take some technical skill you think people do not have? No, I really don't think so. I gave the development team 3 games to glance at to see what I thought would be better. I don't see how this is doing their work for them,it is pointing them in a direction that will address what I think would be better. I can't see how anyone would consider that to be too much.
     
    Numa, Womby and Roycestein Kaelstrom like this.
  19. Mugly Wumple

    Mugly Wumple Avatar

    Messages:
    1,267
    Likes Received:
    2,421
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Space Coast
    I disagree. It is the Devs who know the system and how best to address a problem. While suggestions of fixes is never remiss, I think it is enough for players to say what is wrong (and what is right)...

    What shouldn't need to be said: ... in a helpful, insightful thoughtful and restrained manner.

    [edited for clarity]
     
    Roycestein Kaelstrom likes this.
  20. Jaanelle DeJure

    Jaanelle DeJure Avatar

    Messages:
    1,854
    Likes Received:
    4,283
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Now I find this fascinating! I'm going back through my entire post history in order to see what I can turn up to accommodate Rufus' request for more info by PM. I came across this thread:

    "You think SotA produced a handful of negativity on Steam?"

    (Sorry for some reason my device isn't allowing me to paste a link.)

    Anyhow in this thread from last August are multiple people having pretty much the same conversation we are having here. Including myself. I'll refrain from making any further comments about it, and let the reader draw their own conclusions. Enjoy.
     
    Roycestein Kaelstrom likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.