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Game imbalance is not incentive

Discussion in 'Release 36 Dev+ Feedback Forum' started by Umuri, Nov 8, 2016.

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  1. Gamician

    Gamician Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    Berek,

    To a large group of us who played UO for 15 - 20 years we all know the Bonuses that were given to PvP players.
    - Specials Scrolls that allowed player to reach a 120 skill level, only available in a PvP area.
    - Double resources given to players strictly in PvP areas.
    - Special armor/equipment with special buffs that were available to Faction Members that
    were allowed t be carried over into non-PvP areas.
    - Our monthly payments being poured into attempted balance of skills over and over again
    to please the small PvP community
    - The remake/reprogramming of Factions over and over again for just a few people.

    Every one of those Carrots or so called incentives failed. The PvM community is well aware of the same old Risk vs, Reward excuse which is only a way of forcing non-PvP people to become sacrificial lambs for the PvP crowd. We all know where this is headed.

    We all saw UO lose more and more players to these failed policies.

    We all saw how Shadowbane barely lasted a year or two.

    This is not about PvP players, many of our friends and family enjoy a little PvP, This is about the path the game is taking. This is about a ideology that continues to think if people just try it they will like it, that if we keep adding carrots on a stick they will eventually come over. That approach has failed miserably in UO. It has failed so miserably that a large number of PvM people "HATE" the way they feel they are being treated.

    That is why you see the fervor that exists on this subject. You can laugh that off but you cannot deny it exists. To many of us the Risk vs. Reward that keeps being discussed is that we (PvM) take the Risk and PvP gets the reward. That is not and never will be the definition of Risk vs. Reward.

    You want true Risk vs. Reward. Fine, get a volunteer group together of PvM people. For 50,000 gold per week, I'll guarantee you that I will run naked through as many PvP areas I can for 4 hours per week. Now you truely have Risk vs. Reward. I take the Risk and I get the Reward. The reward to the PvP player is they get to kill me. Hey double that and I'll let them kill me over and over again. It will not be much fun for me but what the heck, I'm being rewarded and your biggest vocal crowd gets what they want. They get to kill someone with no skills and no defenses.

    In PvM many of us die 10 - 15 times a night. Yes we keep going back for the challenge and the Risk. We die over and over until we figure out how to defeat that MOB or group of MOB's. Sometimes we have to quit and come back later when we are better trained.

    Every time we die we lose more Exp. But to us that is the Risk. Our only Reward is generally the Fun we have together as a group and defeating the MOB(s) we face. We do not ask you to increase our Exp by 25% because we die a lot or because we keep going back to take the Risk. So you see you can use that Risk vs. Reward stuff on us all day, the issue is we do not believe in it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2016
  2. Katrina Bekers

    Katrina Bekers Localization Team

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    No, you don't. PVP death doesn't trigger decay.
     
  3. Solazur

    Solazur Avatar

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    I think they call it beig (dev) lazy

    it'll be interesting to track the $ following this..and.. joy yet to unfold.... they say even more unpopular stuff coming.... well that's the way to improve morale...*facepalm* No wonder the population is grinding down
     
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  4. Bow Vale

    Bow Vale Avatar

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    They cant do all at once, Crafting has been a lot more fleshed out than PvP up until now, a lot more work gone into it and I'm sure more will go into in the future. Likely more has gone into crafting up till now than will ever go into PvP.
     
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  5. Poor game design

    Poor game design Avatar

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    I don't get crafted items from PVPing.
     
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  6. Bow Vale

    Bow Vale Avatar

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    In celebration of this news I'm off to visit the Oracle.......Flag in celebration of these changes......if u dare :)


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2016
  7. Alley Oop

    Alley Oop Bug Brigade – Bug Hunter

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    pvp players enhance the game experience for other pvp players. the experience for pve players suffers for it. i go to tournaments to watch my friends because i want to support my friends, not because i enjoy tournaments. if i did enjoy them, i'd go when my friends aren't fighting. when my friends get ganked in town and run around fighting strangers for a while, i sit on my thumbs. i don't begrudge them their fun, but it's interrupting mine. where's my compensation for supporting the game play they enjoy?

    truth is, it's not my responsibility to enhance the gameplay of anyone. this was sold as NOT an mmo. it's got all these staged levels of participation to attempt to appeal to everyone, no matter their preference, including those with variable preferences depending on their mood at the time. i bought for the single-player game, but have found i enjoy SOME of the socialization, and so participate in some, at the right level for me.

    make all the modes equal. stop trying to bait people into multi if that's not what they bought the game for. stop trying to bait people into pvp if that's not what they bought the game for. if they try it and like it and wish to participate in it more, great! ...but no one should feel like their preferred style is a disadvantage, an afterthought, or a detriment to the community that they have no obligation to.
     
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  8. Solazur

    Solazur Avatar

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    Supposedly the bottom line is to promote population and interaction right? Methinks addressing performance instead of trying a cheap parlor trick would have been wiser.
    I DO realize there are those who want meaningful PvP but then again.. how does one do that given the performance issues anyway?
     
  9. Womby

    Womby Avatar

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    Firstly, this is QA. It is appropriate that new ideas get tried out here, and nobody should be overreacting. Calm, rational feedback is much more effective.

    Secondly, single and friends only players currently have a great advantage in rate of XP accumulation. The changes only partly address that current imbalance. (I say that as someone who never goes to adventure scenes in multiplayer, so I am not arguing for personal benefit.)

    Thirdly, those who will never flag PVP will still never flag PVP (I'm one of them). These changes are aimed at those who would flag PVP if there was more incentive/less downside to doing so. Ideally this should be done purely by making it more fun, but everyone has a different definition of fun, and fun is expensive in terms of developer resources. Yes, they are working on that, but I don't begrudge PVP players a little extra bonus to kick things along. I don't care if someone else gets a little more XP - if I was that competitive I would be flagging for PVP myself. I see this as good for the game, and what is good for the game is ultimately good for me.
     
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  10. Duke Gréagóir

    Duke Gréagóir Legend of the Hearth

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    @Chris

    This is total crap forcing backers into PVP like this!

    That is my feedback.
     
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  11. Spinok

    Spinok Avatar

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    Great news, great step in right direction, members of my guild who stoped playing, will come back I`m sure.

    P.S. Why people who play SPO and dont want to participate in PVP ever, are so concered ??? Nothing changes for you really.
    P.S.S. It is not a penalty for you it is bonus for us - players who want to play mmorpg. And again thank you devs for this. Let the guildwars for hunting lands begin.
     
  12. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    That tells me the Price of the Oracle isn't doing its job. Obviously it not worth risking crafted gear when PVPing, which is where the adjustments need to be made.
     
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  13. Poor game design

    Poor game design Avatar

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    Isn't that what they're doing by adding a 25% bonus to experience in pvp areas? I don't think the distribution method is relevant. Are you saying that the Price of the Oracle should only provide experience once you'd killed someone? So you'd get a body part and some items and 50k of exp? I wouldn't be against that.

    What this comes back to however is risk vs. reward. Where's the risk in crafting? Are they crafting in the middle of Rats Nest? I think that deserves a bonus.
     
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  14. Gideon Thrax

    Gideon Thrax Avatar

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    When you play single player - are you playing single player online or offline? It's an important distinction - SPO is reaping all the benefits and rewards of the MMO and you get to play as a single player (participation in a player economy) ... to be clear, you are a witting participant of the MMO and its economy even when playing in SPO.
     
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  15. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    Adding 25% bonus experience only affects PVE kills, since PVP ones don't give XP (or cause decay). That really has no relevance to PVP, except that the goal is to entice players to venture into PVP areas and put themselves at risk.

    What you said was you were not getting crafted items from PVP, but you really should be. Players can loot other players, which would include crafted gear. If you are not getting it, that means that either the price is too low to recover them, or that players are not risking their crafted gear at all. Either way, that means PVP loot is broken. Since that is also part of the draw to get players to PVP, it needs to be fixed.

    The risk is crafting currently is the exorbitant amount of materials, and high rate of loss. That doesn't effect their xp pool, but it certainly has an effect on player's wallets. It makes things like Obsidian Potions very necessary, which should not be the only way to craft.
     
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  16. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    I play mostly PVE with occasional PVP that I do, and in trying to understand this first attempt to get people going PVP, I am not sure it will work. Why not have pvp side quests, things that draw players to the risk and having good rewards and it isn't always about xp that draws people in to doing something, it is about is it fun . It doesn't have to be pve verses pvp getting this game working.

    Games like Archeage and Black Dessert are said to be failing in many ways, and why is that, we could say? Details that draw us in to a game need to be there. It is not about the xp that is not what overall will draw us in. This game needs both options to be viable. As we know or should know there is still a lot in the works and we understand that of course, and we really appreciate all the hard work done so far, and also that we get to provide feedback is fantastic.

    I really ask that we tie it all together in the end, let the game remember what we've done, give us achievements, risks and rewards, side quests for pvp and pve and crafting tons of stuff to do, and let there be comments to that we have done and why we have done it. This is so important and a missing fiber to the game. We are lost wandering around from hex to hex otherwise, without connections and comments being said that tie in why are we doing any of this anyway. What are the reasons, what are the incentives, what are the achievements and goals for players, and not only xp incentives. I don't care if I get to GM, I care if I'm having fun. Anyway the game will feel more alive then. If what I've done in town is so separated from what I'm doing out of town while adventuring then I say an important piece of the puzzle is missing.

    Well you did ask for feedback and I think still it is very important and probably in the works and as a strong supporter for this game, I sincerely request and ask that you don't forget the details for us ok. ;)

    Give us reasons to play and tons of them as mentioned crafting side quests, pvp side quests, pve side quests, achievements, goals, world connection, and not xp as the sole reason to play. So we can see the Why am I playing this game without wondering? Like Bounties, bulletin boards with wanted posters, and whose doing what and where to connect us in game. This needs to be addressed sometime of course.

    And to say, IMO the missing details with reason to play, lack of incentives and quest lines, lack of information and character and game feedback, and tracking of things we've done, (and also npc's and our character knowing about it too) ;) is one of the big reasons why Sota is not showing up on new games lists as many times as we should be, well again my opinion.

    People come into the game and even though it is strongly advised that it is in development, still they look around and nothing or very little says anything to them. No comments like you are tired, you are hungry, you need brains j/k but as an example and some do ;). I know the no hand holding rule, but really comments don't have to hold our hand but make the world alive is what is important. Sorry so long but I am trying to push us to be out there where we belong. We have some fantastic things going on, we'll make history in many of them like our emotes, music and so much are so fantastic and amazingly wonderful already, but things aren't getting tied together and that is a big concern I have. What is coming in that will tie it together?

    edited to be more clear I hope. ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2016
  17. Gideon Thrax

    Gideon Thrax Avatar

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    And what?

    And if you don't want to play an online mode - why do you even care what happens in multiplayer? I get it... everyone wants to play in online modes... but they just want to do it by themselves so they can steamroll experience points and nodes... but then pop over to multiplayer to trade it all and then go back to SPO... (yeah, everyone knows why people like SPO)

    All online modes contribute to the economy and everyone that participates is essentially profiting from/ contributing to/ or partaking in SotA the MMO game. That and anyone angry about incentivizing multiplayer is killing opportunities for game growth for everyone - including opportunities to expand the playerbase. New players want multiplayer and there are a ton of folks that want PVP... just take a look at Chronicles of Elyria... people are starving for it.

    This is exactly the sort of incentive that will attract new players. That and multiplayer is awesome. And PVP is fun - when people are in multiplayer. Jeesh guys... give it a rest. It's not like anyone that PVPs in multiplayer gets a chance at exclusive decorations and wearables that are going to be worth a small fortune in the PVE market when they're done testing PVP combat in multiplayer... :rolleyes:
     
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  18. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    It is not fun when, in multiplayer, I go to a scene to kill some mobs and gather some resources and someone has already killed all the mobs, harvested all the nodes and didn't loot anything. It's also not fun to go to a PvP scene only to have someone notice and bring three of his friends simply for the support of killing me. It may be great fun for them but not so much for me.
     
  19. Poor game design

    Poor game design Avatar

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    Yes, that's what it does. It's called Risk vs. Reward. We've had months of players not going into those areas or being flagged pvp. Now there will be an incentive to get into those areas and get the bonus. Not for everyone, but for people on the fence.

    No what I was doing is replying to someone that said they didn't get a reward for crafting. I was making a point that I don't get a a crafting reward for PVPing.

    I understand your point, but I don't agree with it. You're leaving out the risk vs. the reward. A crafter doesn't run the risk of the crafting table killing them and looting their stuff.

    I don't craft with Obsidian Potions. It's not the only way to craft. It's more efficient, but so is playing the game for 24 hours straight.

    Could you explain to me why this is so concerning to you? Why do you need to compete with people that like pvp if you don't want to pvp?
     
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  20. Gideon Thrax

    Gideon Thrax Avatar

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    In the example where someone wrecked a scene of resources... I usually go a different scene that also has trees - that and I know if it's ever just completely horrible in every scene everywhere I can go into SPO... but I consider SPO a punishment so I avoid it at all costs... I'm here for multiplayer.

    As for the ganking. Shoot me a message and I'll go with you whenever. I don't gank but I do love... I mean I LOVE harvesting in PVP scenes. I enjoy the excitement and there's no macro jockeys or mindless grinding there... you have to keep your head on a swivel. I love that part. You have to develop real skills where harvesting is concerned or you could lose it all - and you have to stay quick on your feet and the last thing you want to do is leave a trail of unlooted mobs for gankers to follow. I think it's actually the best and most immersive resource gathering experience in the game.
     
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