Goodbye

lol nice. The force is strong with you young High Baron, but you are not a Jedi yet!

 

If there is an unusual amount of complaining about moderators it speaks for itself.
Maybe instead of repeating vaguely formulated "forum rules" like a broken record one should spent some time in taking the reasons people are upset about seriously?

 

Not to be contrary, but that video was Billy Jack, who totally bucked the system with dissent against mainstream attitudes, complete opposite of a fanboy. So maybe a more suitable video would be appropriate to show a video that's showing people sad that a popular opinion person was ousted.

 

It is funny to see people getting all philosophical about how the decision to stay is his to make. Stop overthinking it and just ask him to stay I think the idea is just to show some support, remind that there are friendly people around.

 

I'm both a veteran poster and was a fervent supporter until I saw decision after decision made that I disagreed with. I must have had the foolhardy belief that when I raised my objections, I might be considered a voice for many who felt the same as I did. But alas, it does not do any good, no matter how constructive ones talks, and that's where the frustration begins.

The term troll is used constantly to try to stop someone from disagreeing. Disagreement does not = TROLL.

Personally, I don't come here just to stir up the pot. I invested money in this game, seriously wanted to invest a ton more, and was asked to give my voice. I was anxiously looking forward to what this game would become, based on KS claims. It's taken turn after turn, with what I believe is away from what KS represented.

The only voice that seems allowed is if you agree with everything the dev team concocts.

Everytime some of us disagree, we're drummed out of the forums and called names, such as trolls.

I don't get bored and go away for awhile. I have lost hope, but come to check now & then to see if there is any last dwindling hope.

There have been many times I've raised objections, and only after months, see the dev team finally does something I said long ago. But it's still not enough. The direction is irreversible for too many things.

 

I consider myself proof that a lot of that thinking is.. not entirely accurate. I don't know what anyone else thought SotA was going to be based on KS.. but I for one am seeing not only nearly everything I expected but a lot more.

Sure I've had a lot of accusations thrown my way by others.. names, implications, none of whom are devs so I just take it in stride. As soon as people resort to that I know I have the high ground so long as I don't respond in kind.

I disagree with how a lot of things are proposed to be implemented. Seen plenty of my ideas make it in-game and even managed to change a dev's mind (and given credit for it).

Some things I've been arguing for/against for over a year now without hearing any major changes in thinking. I keep it up every opportunity.

What I don't expect.. is for Portalarium staff to personally address every single thing I say or every individual who has a different opinion or to change their thinking to suit my tastes because I think my way is better (which it is ).

I see no reason to get discouraged and lose hope. There's 30 very busy people on the team and how many thousands of us screaming "it should be done this way!" "I don't like this!"

It's not about me. It's not about my utterly brilliant ideas that are the best things since sliced bread. It's not about you either. It's about SotA and doing what we can to make it the best it can be. So what if a dev doesn't deal with us directly or the game doesn't change direction on our say so. Most people don't ever have the opportunity to object to a game's direction let alone have a chance to influence it.

Once you give up you lose your chance. Give up your chance to object and you no longer have any complaining rights. What good is it to say "they didn't listen to me" when you've stopped participating? In the very least I'm going to retain my right to say "you see! I told them so! No on to EP2 so we can fix it!"

 

That was the idea. Didn't think it would come to having to spell it out though

 

Enderandrew what could you possibly say to get banned anyway? Insulting people?, All I have seen on these forums since joining is could clean fun with heated debate, Normally circulating around that PvP nonsense, Anyway I thought your posts I see were all intelligent good posts so +1 to you m8.
Mig's removes his rose tinted glasses and fires up guild wars 2, hey ho lets go!

 

"The Accused Being Brought Before Everyone"

That's a common sight here in Asia, where everyone gets to see the accused and the arresting officers discussing why he was arrested, which is something we maybe not use to seeing in the west. This style of humiliating "televised arrest" has a drastic impact upon those that would think to cross any lines of law. So it's not totally unheard of
~TL~
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Caliya Said;

Not to be contrary, but that video was Billy Jack, who totally bucked the system with dissent against mainstream attitudes, complete opposite of a fanboy. So maybe a more suitable video would be appropriate to show a video that's showing people sad that a popular opinion person was ousted.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~TL~
I'm sorry Lady Caliya, I don't believe you saw or maybe remember the entire movie.
Billy Jack was the sheriff of the autonomous American Indian lands who's people relied on the supply lines and trade from outside the Indian Jurisdictional area of his territorial boundaries of enforcement. He saw that outside of his nation, his people were being physically assaulted even to the point of physically assaulting his territories children by dumping flower on their heads and humiliate them because of their race. So, Billy jack decided to administer justice onto the assailant with his Indian Reservation's style of implementation. Yet the town's law enforcement was just as harsh as Billy's style of justice, but also allowed the visiting Indians to be assaulted and offering them no protection to the point of allowing one of their prominent community members to **** an underage girl as well as his Girl Friend. Meanwhile the town's sheriff was leading other town's people into the Indian's Reservation Territory to kill off and harvest the Indian's resources for sale as dog food.
The movie itself was created by college students with a very low $1,000,000.00 budget and became one of the highest grossing pictures of it's time in the way of profits.
In the end, Billy Jack was being arrested to recon and be judged for what he actions he had taken. The officers that first came to arrest him were coming to kill him and it was not until the state police showed up before he surrendered to their higher authority.
It was a Great Movie and had many following sequels and almost had a Keanu Reeves which broke down because of contract negotiations and other commitments.
My intent was to demonstrate the exact nature in a more despicable circumstance which would best suit our "enderandrew's" good intent and unfortunate outcome, but not to defend his actions, nor to judge them, but to salute him for the wonderful community projects he staffed for us all by himself.
"But at some point in our world, you too could find yourself bashing a monster's head in a virtual very violent manner".
~TL~
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Lord Trenyc Said;

My good friend Time Lord,

I understand the need to discuss issues along these lines, but I believe the discussion is rooted in a failure of communication, specifically as pertains to why we have that rule. It is true that our local mods have a tendency to be a little heavy handed in their doling out of due punishments, such that you're often told you've done something wrong (or in this case told how to do things right) without really being told why. The unfortunate reality is that most people get defensive when faced with this kind of treatment. I'm quite confident that the good Lady Fire Lotus's post, for this very reason, ruffled some feathers despite its good intentions.

What we often forget (because we're not often reminded) is that conflicts between aggressive personalities are not just a detriment to the image of the game. They are more a detriment to the sense of community these forums are meant to promote. This is a place where people can both criticize and support the game. I have seen (and done) both, sometimes quite to the critical extreme and sometimes quite to the extreme of praise. I have made attempts to moderate conflict, I have stepped in to defend unpopular beliefs I've felt have some merit, and I've stepped away from threads that have grown overly personal and moved more towards arguments ad hominem. In all of this, I make an effort--especially when I'm posting about a topic about which I feel strongly--to remember (and to make it clear in my response that I remember) that complaining or defending a thing won't do any good at all if I can't or don't adequately explain why I feel that thing is right or wrong. Giving someone the proverbial beatdown doesn't help anything, and it risks giving newcomers the feeling that they aren't welcome here--like the community is segregated. You know, if you ain't with us, you're against us. (That's bad.)

One thing I've learned over many years of participating in many different kinds of "delicate" discussions is that fights have a greater impact than ruining the discussion at hand. They make people not want to discuss anything at all. At the same time, they undermine the productive discussions we do have. Plainly put, ragefests between fanboys and critics aren't something developers and producers are keen to see. If no one wants to see it, why do it?

As I said before, too, you can never accurately judge who is trolling and who is legitimately irate. If you make a fight out of something that could be otherwise approached constructively, you risk influencing that person's opinion of this community in a very negative way, and that's not at all good for the game's PR. For many gamers, there is nothing at all worse than a local forum full of fanboys who refuse to recognize that there is anything wrong with a project. There is always something wrong with a project. SotA is no exception, and if we want people to really believe that this can be a great game despite its flaws, we need to be honest about what those flaws are, just as we need to point out what will be so great about the game. If you really think about it, information about SotA is scattered across lots of different sources that can be challenging to find for newcomers who might not even know that those sources exist, and it can be easy for some of us who know this stuff through and through to forget that. We should make an effort to link those resources when responding to posts that clearly indicate ignorance. More importantly, we should just remember that ignorance isn't usually a bad thing. Most people are willing and able to learn if pointed in the right direction.

Being kind to others can help bring more backers to SotA. People come for the game. They stay for the community. Not all of those people back right from the get-go, so everything we can do to make people feel comfortable and at home in this community directly contributes to the likelihood of would-be backers to pledge. That's what we need to remember--the why behind the rule, not just the rule itself.
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~TL~
Truly a wonderful manifesto meant in it's most loving nature and I appreciate the sentiments expressed in it as it is a good example of a more delicate rendering to my comments and I thank you my friend for your time in which it took because it is the best example.

Our SotA, because it is so inclusive to the many forms of online gaming, is tackling two ends of the gaming marketplace. One, "You can Play Farmville Here", which is Great!!! But you can as well play a murdering, bloodthirsty, out right slaughtering and pillaging hard core game here as well, which is also Great!!!

Our Moderators here are immaculate Paladins within their execution of their duties here, yet without such public floggings are forced to execute their duties as would any soldier and dispense their justice accordingly.

Most of the Moderator's enemy as well as our own is SPAM! Personally harmful spam can erupt when 2 or more players come together and just can't agree with the other's opinion, resulting in a continued flurry of outstretched words with the intent to see common ground or concede to the other's opinion. yet, some of our issues in ideas are in deadlock because we have yet to virtually experience them in our current Alpha Testing Game. Remembering that there are hopes for many more newer reading and posting members yet to come, these types of deadlocks will continue to rise, resulting in what we may consider our good or bad posting members on all sides of almost all issues of suggestion. Since our PvP and PvM combat is going to be and is the most central part of our game, then we expect that these will be attracting a more curiosity focus to our incoming members. They will come with all of their own ideas, assumptions, expectations but above all questions about our game. Thus will increase such public confrontation and deadlock of conflicting ideas through expression. "So we must find the best way through this with proper law". The laws we have can sustain us, yet we will see more of what is the subject of this thread's issues.

At points we find ourselves in a war of words here in our forum. "This is a virtual world where we can battle between us with words", soooo, "What happens when we add animated Avatars with this virtual reality of forum?" Because that's what our gaming virtual world is going to be. <---<<< there's no doubt about that is there?

So, Public Floggings by virtual reality words are not as harsh as they may seemingly be no more than talking about the subject of Cannibalism or Player Murder. A Flogging Thread is not a totally bad idea, it just may be a bad idea when it comes to continued fund raising unless better ways are found to quell any deadlocked issues away from their frustration which becomes the SPAM we all hate to eat with out eyes.

Currently I see these deadlocked issues getting in the way of any new player's ability to ask a question about what is known about our game.<---<<< "This is the most important issue I believe that our continued successful funding faces"!!!

Maybe we need to test out our new "opting in and opting out" options that will be in our game by having an option given for our forums of ether opting in to Public Floggings or opting out of Public Floggings whereby we could have the option of being judged by our peers in a Public Flogging with voting rights given to administer a vote within it, or opt out of Public Floggings and remain with the current rules of forum?

I personally would opt in for a good Flogging for myself...
"Which would be the personal choices that you all would opt in for?"
Would you opt out and wish for yourself to be judged by the Moderator?
Or yourself in for a Public Flogging if you get out of line and be judged by your peers?
I think Lebowski would say that's too many words
~Time Lord~
XX

 

Oh and BTW
"I like the cleanings the Moderators do!" <---<<< That's a very effective method of burning the SPAM
~Time Lord~

 

Score Thus Far; 23 posting lashes...

13.2% Flog Him vs. 86.8% Mercy

"Let the flogging continue we need more voters on this subject" !
~Time Lord~

 

Wow, let's all just get back to talking about the game not the forum. Even if someone were to get totally banned, they can still play the game. Sometimes things get a little too wrapped up in themselves when you have a very intensely committed and involved community. I think we're moving there...

 

I wouldn't worry about that attitude. Only sith deal in absolutes.

 

So Time Lord has played the role of Sith Lord.

I knew it!

 

vigilante justice, mob justice, are no answer.

humility is a virtue; humiliation is not.

Learn to not respond to every negative thing, especially when they are of zero substance.

 

By the numbers it sounds like American politics, minority rule...(the minority with the money and whip in their hand...).

 

If there WERE an unusual amount of complaining...
But it's not more or less than most game forums I visit and have visited in the past. This one feels more emotional. I guess that's because so many people are trying to influence the making of the game to be as much as possible as they wish it to be. And when dreams collide...

 

What Time Lord is describing isn't really vigilante justice. It's more public shaming. It works in the East because real people tend to feel shamed by the crimes they've committed when other people are made aware of their guilt. This is, as it happens, the fundamental reason why people (especially children) tend to lie about wrongdoing. In many ways, people you care about knowing that you've done wrong is a worse punishment than anything practical the law is likely to dole out (that is, assuming the criminal isn't a sociopath). It's a perfectly fair and adequate practice for deterring real crime.

It doesn't work out so well in the virtual space, though, because people can easily retain a high degree of anonymity here. Someone who legitimately is trolling won't care if you beat them silly with verbiage because he or she won't feel even the slightest pinch of it. I still strongly believe that those kinds of conflicts always work to the detriment of this community. Whether they serve no meaningful purpose besides is sort of a moot point, since I expect we're all here to play a game that will depend heavily on the level of investment each of us feels in the community.

 

Public flogging is great and all, but I think Trenyc is right. Instead, I'd prefer to just see more tangible rules that give more guidance for our actions.

 

hence my second line about humility.

I know what he described, I read that massive wall. flogging was done as a fear tactic, because of the circumstances of what one mans incompetence or disloyalty meant on a tiny wooden ship in the middle of the vast ocean.

I dont think we should act as humiliaters to shame people around here. There is no reason you can't just NOT respond to obvious trolls.

for ones who are not obvious, speak with your brains, not your ropes, pitchforks and whips.

and for the ones who won't dent to verbal discourse, ignore them and move on to something else.

a lot of people think that if they don't have the last word, or can't convince someone of a bad point of view, that other people can't seemingly see their counterpoint view to the troll.

people are smart enough to draw their own conclusions from the words on the screen, give them more credit. for if you don't have faith in people to know the difference, you are going to be playing a game with people what of substance?