Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by ghostthealienhunter, Apr 22, 2014.
Open your bank and unlock your house to looting for your own humility karma boost.
My issue with stealing and snooping is that it is not remotely close realistic - I'm not after true realism - it is just that stealing in games is way too easy.
If there was a high risk to get caught or authorities alerted - that would make it more reasonable to implement
- If there were "account wide" and "Days - Real TIme" consequences again it would make it more reasonable to implement
The big problem is that in order for a "thief" to have fun they have to steal .. a lot ... and that throws a curveball to game balance I would imaging
The only way for it to be feasible is to make it punishing ... both in advancement and execution of skills ...
A year ago - I proposed a skill that had a % chance of "knocking out" someone and only on Knock out would you be able to look through and take something from an npc
Upon a knock out - you would enter a quick mini game - that you would spend more time in at the crime scene - to be able to look at more pockets ...
otherwise you could only crab what was in eyesight ...
I've be more interested in stealing skills like what I proposed - but not the ones where you stand next to someone and waahla I got you money and goods that you had in your back pack ...
"One thing I know for certain, is that Lord British has always held a soft spot for all thing in the Rouge skills just as much as he has with any other skill"!
^^That is an un-doubtable Fact!^^
So, lets take a closer look at what we know of online game and real life examples of the world of "theft"...
I'll start off with some simple examples of "cause and effect" to help us gain a more real life perspective;
Say in real life, I am walking down the street and then suddenly punched some random guy in the face as hard as I could, "what are all the actions that he could generally take as a result?"
(psst... this post will be full of rhetorical question)...
He could choose to run away, hit me back or call for help.
For me in this instance, my hand would probably hurt if I hit him hard enough. If there weren't any people around or watching the event, would anyone believe that I hit him? Now, if I had never hit anyone before, I may not have done a very good job at it. But if I had, then my hand may not hurt as much, if at all if I was really good at it and hit people all the time.
Now, if you hit someone here in Thailand, the authorities will charge you 500ThB=under $20... I say this here because it reflects a society that has very few fights because of the relative freedom of anyone to fight back with less than we would expect consequences by authorities being taken. "This is similar to our game", where we do have relative freedom to punch someone or punch them back.
"Now was all of this an easy thing to do and get away with?"
(Rouge Skills and Theft);
Now lets say I walk down to a local 7-11 store and grab a candy bar off the shelf and stuff it into my pocket. If someone saw me do it, then a choice would be made to counter my offence, just as it was for me smacking some guy in the face. Yet if I got away with it, then it was a very easy to accomplish task that didn't hurt my hand.
Now, if I try to pick pocked anyone, that would take some practice, but not any more practice than it would take to gain any other skill. Then a similar chain of events as above would come into play.
"Now were each an easy thing to get away with?"
Now let me express some things having to do with the gaming world of the rouge;
Most of us here remember what theft was from Ultima Online, which mostly involved pickpocketing. I thought that pickpocketing was one of the most boring skills there. The only fun that was in it for me and many others, was the hunt and chase that came before but mostly after a failed attempt. I also think that any "pre-judgment" that causes the theft skill to be harder than any other to raise implies that there is a magical policeman out there somewhere in the universe that hates thieves and makes it hard for them to learn their craft. "Wall Street does it all the time in broad daylight and raped the world during their last heist and we all saw it happen"... (they are now still in business and smiling)...
So I can't believe that a 16th century styled Ultima Judge couldn't be bribed, or the guard.
Now let's look at what the pickpocketing skill "may do" in our totally new game of SotA;
Remember that "Thai Bar Example" from a few posts back?.... The same applies to going out adventuring. Anyone with true valuables that they have on them, are going to be hiding them as hidden as they can be on them, just as it was when they took natural precautions at the Bar. The pickpocketing skill in this case, becomes a very viable and worth while skill to have in the form of "looting anyone dry" by having the pickpocket education to be able to know of all the places where some "most valuable something's" can be hidden on a body.
"Is a thief now a valuable, meaningful and less exiled member of any hunting party or to have as a close friend of your band of Fellowship?" Now let's do a Karma Check on that?...
Possibly a new light, for a new game
Now, then there are deeper possibilities;
Bank Heists, and Public Building Burglary.... will my mask come off and then get the bad Karma from being seen and thus judged? If my mask is never taken off, then no bad karma from any magical means should be able to be given to me. Yet if I am engaged by the touch of NPC or Player Guard, my mask will most certainly come off or be taken off by the physical engagement or magic fire ball that hits me.
As far as horse theft, that's easy, unless as above mentioned, the mask of El' Zoro comes off'!
This is a quest game where almost every quest encounter leads to another just waiting and beckoning us to come join in the fun! Let's try and keep it that way for everyone
Let's Get Some More Feedback Going
Stealing has always felt forced to me. So yeah, the label not realistic fits.
I would remove the skill to pickpocket all together, not the mechanic just the skill. Everyone has the same skill check. The difference is the prevention. Their could possibly be a prevention skill. But the public eye would be the main mechanic. The more players attempt to steal, successful or unsuccessful, the more the public would be watching.
Your skill level is in title only, a grand master thief is someone that doesn't get caught. Get caught and the title vanishes.
Smaller towns would carry lesser titles but potentially have less prevention. (less people watching due to less attempts)
Item insurance was what killed it for thiefs in UO utterly useless after they introduced that apart from the grabbing arties side of it
What about for pick pocketing(Stealing) the use of some sort of chance mechanic.
(Example not suggestion: Dex + Stealth * some random chance stat to steal vs *shrugs* Dex + Detect hidden * some random chance to spot the attempt).
Warning goes off to the player if the rogue fails and the rogue is marked but only to the player who spotted him. (This leaves the possibility for the rogue to deny having done it to others.)
Laughs I always thought a 'jail' should be in place too but not sure how it could be implemented. If caught (maybe knocked out as mentioned above) the rogue has to spend time in jail (Maybe 5 minutes real time.)
In any case, I'd just be happy to have the chance to spot the perpetrator and then attempt to retrieve my items by whatever means necessary.
"I think we are still thinking with our UO brain here" ... My self included *reflection*
In real life we are more likely to get mugged than we are to being pickpocketed....
"The Succumb Skill";
This is where a thief suddenly hold a knife to your throat and if you move they cut your jugular killing you, or he's bluffing and it was just a threat.
Of course after they release you, PvP is on like Donkey Kong...
This would also work well in dungeons sneaking up on a single monster while in stealth. Yet if there are any other monsters around the thief may only kill one of them in this way, the same as if he mugged anyone in a group.
"The Burglary Skill";
If any account is flagged for PvP, I see nothing wrong with the idea that your home is fare game with your servants serving as your interior guards. They (the NPC) could be programed with a choice to ether run for help from the town guards and screaming to all passers by, or stay and fight. This would greatly reduce anyone hording things within their home without a safe... but we'll get to lock picking and combination cracking maybe later... Yet all your pledge goods or bolted down goods would remain relatively safe....
"But it's more likely that monkeys fly out of my backside than to ever have such a skill provided for in our SotA"
Just some bouncing around ideas for the thief ... to be restrained to the life of a pickpocket seems a very dull life for anyone and an annoying one to everyone...
Time Lord, could you please stop liking my posts? I think you are indiscriminately liking every single post that you can get your hands on for some reason, and it annoys me. I feel stalked. So please?
Time Lord is just very generous...
Knight Commander Tyncale
I like what you're saying about this, please continue
At times, I may like a thread and at others a post or a friend.
But until I like many more of yours, I'll like you till the end
Hahaha. This image made my night. Well, this and the fact that Time Lord liked Knight Commander Tyncale's "Don't like my posts" post. If I could like Time Lord's like, I would.
Your poem brought a tear to my eye.
I guess Time Lord found a new way of harassing people on a forum. You seem a bit childish though. Let me try something:
Time Lord, you MUST like this post of mine. I command you to like it. Do so now.
OK Enough of this off topic stuff, I've got another Time Lord Thief question
"Because I like you, so much"
"What does It Take, When It Takes a Thief?"
"The way we've always imagined the thief's skills to be, I believe are all wrong"... This is a New Britannia and thus we need to do things that are counter to those failed skills we've produced for Ultima Games of the past.
A thief in our game could be nothing more than a character with agility, dexterity and cleverness to get into and out of difficult places and situations.
An Expert Climber
A Kung Fu Artist?
A Great Swimmer
An Invisible Man
Someone Who Can Loot a Body Dry More Than Any
A Man That Can Use a Rope For Climbing
Or Use That Same Rope to Tie Himself Up In a Tree
The Ability to Escape
The Ability to Evade
To Make a Disguise
These to me are some of what I believe that a SotA Thief, should have and be able to do.
Because to be a pickpocket... is a very dull and irritating life to be convicted to...
Now, Whatcha' Tink About Dat?
Stealing against NPC's is pointless. It's a waste of development time and a waste of time in general as it's always easy to abuse.
Stealing from other players however is a very important part of any roleplaying setting.
If the mechanics of being a pick pocket involve nothing more than standing next to someone and pressing a "steal" button, then yes I agree. But we can think of many more clever ways to do this if we try (though don't bother because there are plenty of threads about that already).
So the real question becomes what does it take to be a thief. Thieves steal, so I would say that stealing is a very important skill to have if you're a thief. But thieves do not always steal things from people's pockets. Many steal from homes.
How do we balance this though? I've answered this question before (many times) and I believe the answer is to limit what can be stolen and from whom it can be stolen from.
Here's a quick summary of my idea:
The game must create highly sought after items (artifacts, relics, items of great power) that can be used to gain an edge in PVP or to increase crafting ability (for a whole town!) But here's the catch, because these items are so wonderful, they come with a risk - they can be stolen. Thus creates the need for thieves while also allowing those that do not wish to be stolen from to effectively "opt out" by not keeping any of these powerful items.
It's a simple and yet eloquent solution to a very complex problem. I'm hoping the developers will eventually come to the understanding that it's the best idea, and will deliver it to us in Episode 1.
No stealing from NPC's???
B...but... there such easy targets! They wont blow you away with corp por... They really dont care what happens to them cuz there just basically storyline props. Because of the fact that they dont care we can butcher em, loot em, pillage their houses and raze their cities to the ground. They will never complain to the dev's about being killed, looted, or having their house looted because they are designed to take all that for our amusement. So please devs allow us to steal, and burglarize NPC's!
Stealing from other players gets nerfed too much due to player victim feedback. Player looting players after they kill them is nerfed big time with the loot limits. So stealing probably wont be quite as fun unless a PvM rogue system is developed.
They should, as well as many other miscellaneous skills. I remeber from UO: Spirit Speak, camping, foressin, taste, tracking, lockpiking, begging...
It would be if I were designing it. (see above)
You can already steal from NPC's in Morrowind, why wouldn't people just do that all day? That games already created and cheap and no one is likely to improve on that concept. Why would anyone need to have that functionality in SotA, what's the point?
You're correct that the victim feedback would be strong if you allowed anyone to steal anything...but I don't suggest that. I think you make the very best items stealable and then people know that their time with said item is probably going to be limited to their ability to hold on to it. These items wouldn't be common, they would be unique and rare and require a lot just to get your hands on them. But once you did, watch out, cause there's probably a long line of people looking to take it for themselves.
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