Levels are killing this game

I like that idea

 

Cleaned the thread up a bit. The insults and mud slinging need to stop. Keep it on point without attacking each other on the forums, please.

 

Look, I didn't post that video to show proof of anything but the fact that I pvp just about as much as anyone else my level. Typically I get to about level 30 or 40 and then the grind curve just becomes too much for me.

I don't really see how anyone could NOT think that levels matter in pvp. Unfortunately, I can't find people lower level than me to fight, and the only people that want to fight in pvp are those way above my level.

I've been playing pvp since R9 when it first came out (because I personally begged for it, btw) and I haven't seen ANY evidence to suggest that levels don't matter, I've only heard the same handful of people that are very high level say that.

So sure, believe what you want.

 

The skill system design, including its skill specific level progression, is just fine. At this point, I hope the dev team focuses on improving the polish of the system with functional skills, flesh out spell weaving more, and create great animations and cool visual and sound effects. No need to waste time on yet another overhaul IMHO.

As for PVP, it sounds like the interest here is owning PVP from the start, instead of having to work for it. I have no issue with newer, lower level characters having a harder time with PVP and having to work for it. Why? It is very simple. SOTA is a "Progression" game. Progression is a core game play element of a great many games we play, not just this one. Take something simple like Candyland -- roll a dice, move a few spots forward, see progression. But you don't get to the prize at the end until you progress along the path. Chess? More complicated but no different. The move by move you create a progression of strategic position, then finally later are able to capitalize on all of that work. SOTA is no different. Here you whack a monster, chop a tree, watch a number go up, see progression, reap the rewards. Ding! Then you are great at PVP.

To ask for the rewards without the progression ... hmm.... there are games like that. They come in two forms. The first type is called First Person Shooters. No progression required. Just log in and kill. I think SOTA is a different genre of game than that though? The second kind are games like SOTA that have taken PVP out of the 'normal world' setting and essentially placed PVP in 'arenas' that level the playing field. WOW and SWTOR do this - reasonably successfully with PVP. I don't see SOTA as that genre of game either. Are you asking for one of these, or something different still?

Just making everyone the same skill level in game for PVP action seems rather ... dull.

 

Here is a possible solutions. Normally to learn a skill someone must teach you. You can pay someone to teach you, or if they require prove yourself before they would teach you. I have a two step character progression method to allow for lower level pvp entry but make it worth while for higher level grinding.

Fame
Can replace levels with fame, do more quests or kill more baddies gives you more fame. Instead of levels can have fame be rank titles that a player can display.
start off no title, then progress up to legend or hero or something. Each skill will require a fame level in order for it to be unlocked for a master to teach you. Someone can learn all the low rank skills or grind up to the higher ranks in a few trees.

Skill Ranks
Instead of skill levels 1-100 there can be a few ranks. Novice, Adept, Master
When you first learn a skill it will be novice but can quickly grind it to adept. The skill will then progress to the next rank during normal killing and questing, but it would not be worth it to grind it up. It would be more of a reward for playing for so long.
Makes skills more equal between players for both questing and pvping but allows for a reward after using it for a long time.

 

I'm still of the opinion there needs to be many pvp opportunities where players who are not PvP oriented, and even casual PvPers can engage in player conflict temporarily. There needs to be something that will bridge the gap. I call this the player conflict gradient. Maybe some players never specifically turn their PvP flag on, but they have the opportunity to be exposed to player conflict in incremental amounts. I'd like to see NPC guilds issuing PvP oriented quests that cause players to travel all over the map to accomplish objectives. It gives players a taste of PvP without having to 'go turn my pvp flag on' or off.

The Shardfall stuff seems pretty interesting but I'd like to see opt-in pvp activities be much more pervasive throughout the game environment.

If the PvP system feels like Quake, Unreal Tournament or whatever the newer FPS type games are these days - where there's no skill gains or achievements... I know I will tune out. I don't want to play FPS or death match mode. It's not immersive. I don't want to see so and so has 95 kills and I have 2 kills when I get into a PvP area. I'd prefer to see that stuff entered into a bounty board or criminal system.

 

Sorry for misunderstanding your intentions. Didn't mean to offend.

I'm currently under level 40... maybe even lower since i have half my experience pool still unspent. Maybe i visit that maze you call a town sometime looking for a fight as i said before, i don't go to the big PVP fights because i think my time is better spent in grinding (sad truth but we're on the same point there again)

I took a fast look at the whole post and haven't found anyone saying that levels don't matter (besides Chris by quote lol). Lots of things have been said about levels, but that they don't matter...

Believing is overrated i prefer to know.

I saw you quoting all my post but it seems your comments only go around the first two lines... I'd like to hear about the rest as well, if you have something to say about it. Or is it that you don't love first order LTI systems?

 

This is why I'm glad I don't like PvP. I dislike the vast amounts of negativity that come from competitive gameplay.

I've always enjoyed the cooperative nature of role plying games the personal character development and story telling.

Personally, I don't quite see what PvP players see in a game like this when there and sooo many types of games that already focus on that competitiveness.

 

If this was a thread about leveling I would comment that right now there is no flow. No direction, just find a spot and grind. Exploring isn't good for your life expectancy. Really, the only thing you can do is find a spot and work it for a while.

SPO gives you control over that spot. No interruptions.

But this seems to be a thread about level disparity in PvP. So my point doesn't need to be expanded. Level disparity isn't killing the game. It does put a wall up for people to jump into PvP though.

 

To both you and @Deamo84, I'm not just interested in pvp, I'm a roleplayer too. And to me, even if you took pvp out of the game, the idea that you have to "find a spot to work" is horrible. I don't like that. I don't like spending hours on hours just trying to grind my character up the ranks. It's dumb.

So I think this is more than just a pvp issue, I think it's a pve issue too. At least, if you want to roleplay and not grind. There are plenty of people out there that confuse the two.

 

It just need to make anyone that is 1o levels (could higher diff) lower than another Player becomes non- attackable in PVP. Then everyone will have at a least a chance to beat an higher level opponent.
Would also cut out the need to grind through levels fast, PVP'ers can then do more levelling in PVP as more will participate has they will not become PK fodder, which is what the PVP only zones are designed to do by forcing PVE players to become easy targets for the gankers.

 

The title is "levels are killing this game" the current state of the game is "there is no game". The conversations following the OP are about PvP and the level disparity. The level disparity is a much harder topic. We don't have nearly enough pieces to the puzzle.

There isn't going to be a flow to follow for people to know where to go. Not for a while at least. Leveling as a byproduct of doing what we enjoy is the goal. Not a task required to complete before we get to do what we enjoy.

Making a smooth flow is more of a beta thing.

 

That's not a bad idea. I don't like what it does to the player population though.

Maybe the thing to do is to adjust how they do in golf by giving people the ability to handicap themselves. So you want to pick on people that are 50 levels lower than you? Great, give yourself a 50 level handicap. Players that like to grief will hate it, but players that want a fair fight will applaud it.

Not sure if that would work or not, I'd have to think more on it, but I like the spirit of it.

 

WoW, you must have woke up on the wrong side of the bed today, sorry, but these only serve your opinion... I'm sure the dev's are aware of your plight and I agree that fighting other players should gain skill, but please don't suggest things that are unhealthy for the rest of us who never PvP at all...

 

I guess I was half wrong

 

Maybe there should be an arena where people can just PVP with full set of maxed out skills. Like UO had the test server where you could set skills at maximum~! Then the problem would be that the skills are still bugged!! Have a conversation with the DEVS or Lord British maybe. !! Personally I like making progress in a game and being able to raise your character above others. Learning tricks or secrets that raise your character fast is fun to me. I would not enjoy a game where everyone starts out maxed out. Go play an FPS. This is an RPG.

Now here our some of my observations and opinions.
I have seen a lot of people on here don't like pvp from my experience. And a lot of them are afraid to go through the control points or into pvp zones right now even though there is no pvp happening at all. I thought this was kind of disappointing myself. I enjoyed pvp, pking or defending from pks. Personally dueling felt like grinding to me and not as fun as the chaos of big battles. I like the excitement. The game is not realllly ready for that. Many skills do not work properly or at all. I mean if they allowed it everywhere maybe it could still be fun even though combat is still work in progress and pretty much broken when it comes to skills doing what they should.
The people who are playing right now enjoy mining, crafting and the economical aspects of the game. Or they play political roles which I suppose is a part of roleplaying?(I know there are those of us who enjoy fighting other players were just not the majority all the time) The best part of UO to me was that people had to pvp whether they liked it or not. Or they needed friends who did like it and who could hold their own. You could have multiple characters and you could play both sides depending on how you felt or who was playing that day.
. The game is not done and you can discuss your issues with the devs at any time. In the meantime i'm bringing up my skills and grinding on whatever i can manage to kill because I want to play now and get an idea of what to do when the game is officially released.

I don't see anyone hanging in pvp zones or making pvp guilds. Maybe you can try that. Make a guild to pvp and grind your levels up in a pvp map area. Own that area with your guild and people will come challenge you.

SO
Ask the devs to consider a pvp arena that sets all skills to max where you can adjust your skills before dueling. I think that is what you want right? And(or) go and camp a spot in a pvp area in the map and own it with a guild.

 

A small tidbit in between here.
A)
Questing gives XP. XP levels you up. Higher level affects health, focus and to-hit.
B)
In r23 we start with 10 000 XP in both pools. First scene includes a training dummy. One can use the dummy to get skill gain and deplete that pool.

So if P1 and P2 start fresh, same path so they have same starter skills and gear.
Neither visit a skill trainer and neither modify their decks.
But
P1 does the starter quests and thus levels up to level 20. (For this scenario assume someone gives P1 all the quest items. )
P2 instead stand in the first scene hitting the training dummy over and over depleting the 10 000 XP pool into skill gain. (For the scenario think of this as killing 0xp skeletons instead if training dummies offends you-it's not the point).

Now we pitch them against each other. One with no extra combat training having more XP but never used the skills.
One with lots of extra combat training but no extra XP.

Now if P1 and P2 fights, P2 stands no chance, and P1 will dominate.
Same thing with crafting skills and crafting nodes.


I think that is wrong.

In a use based system I think that use based training should count for more than levels. But as it is in r23 the opposite is true. Levels count for more than actual training.

So while I disagree with 90% of what Drocis is saying, I still think that in the last 10% he is absolutely correct in that the LVL parameter shouldn't be in the math. Removing it from the math would make for a better game.
I think that it shouldn't be the XP filling the pool that makes a difference, it should be the depleting the pool into usable skills that should make a difference.

 

^QFT

As usually happens the topic drifted into personal opinions and ocassional attacks but that's the main point to be extracted here.

 

I agree that Adventurer Level needs to die a quick death, but the problem is scaling difficulty between zones. Adventurer Level gives a "simple" way to tune difficulty.

So, with that said, what are some other ways to measure and define difficulty that can be used to get away from the PvE skill multiplier known as Levels?

 

I absolutely agree with this, and it was rather nicely stated