EXP system breaking balance in PVP

The way experience works in this game breaks any hope of balanced PvP. It is nigh impossible to catch up to the highest level players. Players are at different power levels not simply because of skill and tactics.

Skill and tactics are diminished as a factor when you have a limitless leveling system. Sure you may get a lucky streak of critical hits, but if you put the players in a controlled environment (i.e: same gear, deck and use the same skills at the same time,) one player has the advantage. The thousand+ hours of coma inducing grinding required to reach some form of "breakpoint" where the levels don't mean "that much" are NOT fun, and the average player CAN'T reach it. Even if they did, someone else would still have the advantage, however slight, so it's not truly fair.

My suggestion is that at some point in the near future the level cap becomes attainable for the average Joe.​

I think that if exp is not normalized for people on the "top end" that this issue will lead more people to burn out and quit, and less people to join SotA. This battle of "who can stomach the grind for longer" or "who is macroing/botting and getting away with it" factoring in as a (not very slight) determining factor of who is numerically superior or "better off" in pvp(when you take skill and tactics out of the picture) needs to end if this game is to grow(at least for the demographic of people who consider imbalanced PvP a deal breaker)

As an aside, I have already put several hundreds of hours of work(yes I consider it work) grinding experience and am adventure level 88. There are people who have several times the amount of experience that I have on my character.

For those who say I should chin up and grind more/harder, the answer is no. Enough is enough. I'm not interested in a game of constantly grinding experience to stay relevant, especially when it's so uninviting, and literally impossible to catch up for newcomers.

I liked UO T2A era style where the levels were maxed out relatively quickly and it came down to build, gear, and skill(everyone could reach maximum power level within a week.) I don't like this style of no matter what someone will always be a higher level.

Please share feedback, state if you agree or disagree, and make this a relevant topic!​

 

Well eventually everyone reaches a point where they can't get any better, so things will be more balanced in that regard in the future.

Though I hesitate to say that not having everyone at the same level is a huge problem for PvP, since lower level or average joe players can group up.

The player solution for this problem would be to make a guild

 

There are significant balance problems throughout all levels of pvp, but they're probably not as severe as you imagine. I agree that you're never going to "catch" top end players, neither will I. Some people simply have too much time on their hands. I have a family and a job that will always come before this game.

But there's a skill level curve that makes a skill at 120 not much more than a skill at 80. It's relative though, and when you have multiple skills at 100+ against a player that may only have a few skills at 80, you're going to mop up the floor with them. The argument that's always been used by the peanut gallery is that the player that put all the time into the game "deserves" to win. I don't agree with that, I think there should be a healthy mixture of playing time and skill. Unfortunately there are a lot of players that don't feel that way, and you'll no doubt hear from them in this thread very soon.

Personally I think there should be a level cap that forces players to have character weaknesses and make decisions about how they build their characters. But I also believe there should be a combat system that is more skill based than we have right now. I don't believe either of those things will happen in this game until the developers understand the need.

 

So exactly as my thread pointed out Balance can never be achieved in a system like this . . (https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...me-that-has-skill-and-exp-levels-never.74065/)

Now you want to change they system so there are Caps?

Sorry nope

The problem is as pointed out, and to achieve anything in this game, PvP needs to be just left to its own craziness until the game itself is finished .

Then you can worry about how to make PvP viable - try to do anything prior to completion is a waste of time and resources.

Ty for validating my post.

 

Opinions will change once virtue/anti-virtue faction mechanics are introduced. If mechanics allow players to open up the sandbox and create strategies for a real PVP arms race - that's when things will get really interesting. Right now there still aren't that many folks out looking to mix it up for PVP... I wish Portalarium would just go ahead and tell us what's coming.

 

The ability to do everything really diminishes the meaning of those things. It hurts crafting as much as it does character balance in PVP.

 

Most skills don't curve this way? I hadn't noticed any that do. Stats level 80-100 = stats level 100-120 (and i would imagine though I couldn't say for sure stats level 120-140.)
The curve comes from the skills taking ridiculously more experience per level.

Anyone saying that having skills at level 120 isn't a significant advantage versus someone having the same skills at 100 is lying.

 

The game is in alpha and all systems are subject to change. Unless you speak from a position of authority within Portalarium you don't get to say "sorry nope" to a proposed change and also have your words be meaningful.
Perhaps you could instead direct me to somewhere that Portalarium officially said the experience system will never change, and that experience levels will never be normalized/equalized? If you can do that I would know I'm wasting my time here.

 

Actually no...

Although there are SOME skills/spells that have not been balanced properly between level 100 and 120, most really do have a different curve of power. I'll give you a good and a bad example.

BAD: If you look at the Innate Skill Train Strength, you'll see that it gives you a single point of strength every level, forever. That's an example of a skill that doesn't curve it's power and only costs more XP.

GOOD: But if you look at other skills/spells, for example Death Touch. I'm at level 100 right now and it does 22 to 48 points of damage (this factors in INT level so results may vary) but at level 120 it only does 23 to 51 points of damage. Most skills and spells are like this. Think about that for a second, if you're at 100 and I'm at 120, I'm going to do 1 to 3 points of max damage than you are. that's basically nothing.


STR, INT, and DEX don't follow that curve though, and in the case of STR and INT you're getting hit points and focus way beyond what lower level players are getting. I agree that's wrong, but for some reason @Chris seems to think that's how it should be. I personally think that it rewards power gamers for the sake of being power gamers.

 

Worst idea I've ever heard. PVPers en masse do not want to play imbalanced pvp.

 

Interesting that you say that when there are many threads about sheep vs wolf.

When a sheep is only a sheep due to the lack of levels then the sheep is a wolf that is behind on the arms race.

As long as the bulk of the PvP crowd are pushing for sheep vs wolf (and the devs keep agreeing) your OP isn't all that much of an issue. The sheep don't win the arms race.

 

No but every 20 levels you gain ten strength, and it's not simple either, sometimes you will gain 1 strength two levels in a row, other times you will gain three levels without gaining 1 strength.

As you level that number will go up through attunement. Also if you checked those numbers at 20% health they would be nearly double so more to 2-6 points of damage, and healing, plus the attunement bonus, lets say 3-7. Now cast that spell 10 times. 30-70, now add attunement for 10 more skills, 50-100, now factor in the added crit chance, and lower your opponents damage by your added resistances, now factor in the couple hundred extra health and focus. Does this still seem so insignicant? It's not enough to win every fight, but you're damn skippy it's not even CLOSE to a 50-50.

I will concede that skill, tactics, planning and gear all play a part in PvP. I will also concede that all those things playing a factor is a GOOD thing. I will not concede that a game with never ending level advantages can have healthy balanced pvp, without some form of limit on this statistic being placed. I however don't see a way to balance it effectively without equalizing experience. Even if you make all skills act as level 100 versus other players you would still have people with more focus and hp.

 

Personally I don't like to beat up on lower level players. I was a UO pvper who looked for a good fight, not an easy one. Not all of us haunted graveyards. Some of us hunted in the bottom of the dark dungeon as well.

I play league of legends and I'm in the top 1% of players there. I don't make new accounts to beat up on lower level people. I spam ranked on my main.

I want good, fair fights. I don't want to spend 24/7 grinding xp to make that possible.

Edit: Rather I WILL NOT spend 24/7 grinding xp to make that possible.

 

Yeah, you get a point of STR every two levels. I don't know what you're talking about with the sometimes three points, regardless we both agree that's out of whack and should change.

Ok, your math is making my head hurt. I know I'm right about this because I've watched it all as I've leveled up, I have 22 GM's.

So seriously, please think about what I'm saying here.
1. Don't forget we're talking about random numbers here. So in my example we're talking about a 1 to 3 max roll, it doesn't mean you'll get 1 to 3 more points of damage, just a wider possible roll.
2. I pointed out that YES your STR, DEX, and INT are not on the same curve and that widens the possible roll, but it's still a random roll. You're not getting that high of an average and some new person with lucky rolls could very likely take you out.
3. The XP required to get from 1 to 100 is less than it takes to get from 100 to 120. I know that doesn't mean anything in a fight because the guy with 120 has an advantage, but it's not anywhere near what you're spelling out above. You're assuming that everyone has maxed out STR, DEX, and INT and 120 in all their skills. That's just not the case for the vast majority of players you're ever going to come into contact with.
4. I think the devs plan is to tweak decay A LOT so that it starts to really impact people that have gone crazy with XP in their pool and GM'd 100 skills. I know in the last hang out Chris looked dead into the camera and said that was going to change. So relax.

 

Sheep were never a part of the arms race. Sheep are not people who want to pvp. Sheep is an outdated term, from a system that was forcing people who didn't want to PvP into PvP. It has nothing to do with balance. The system as stands of allowing us to co-exist is perfect in my opinion. Wolves were just looking for an easy win, and that's not what I have ever been about. I would argue that the majority of PvPers were not "wolves", but instead just looking for a fair fight.

The only reason the term "Wolves" exists is because of a minority of players who enjoy picking on weaklings. They are simply bullies. PvPer =/= wolf. Two mutually exclusive things. One can be both, or either. Wolves are scammers and cheats. They are the person who steals your identity. Most who enjoy PvP enjoy it for the challenge. No A.I. boss is going to give me the same feeling of accomplishment as beating someone mechanically or tactically. I'm okay with someone being better than me tactically, or mechanically.. that's just part of life. I'm not okay with being at a disadvantage before you put the players into the equation.

I'm just a PvPer looking for a good time.

 

That's the problem. I'll relax when it's no longer an issue and I can enjoy pvp. If you don't want to hear my voice then walk away, but I'll be damned if you're going to silence me.

 

I'm not in any way trying to silence you.

You're actually trumpeting ideas I've been talking about for years. I was responding to points you made that were far from 100% correct though. If we're going to talk rationally about this we should have our facts straight.

 

Lol.
Always so emotional.

I semi agree with everyone in this thread.

No caps is a stupid system as ive said before.
I watch 2 -5 gms kill 30+gms all the time.
While there are skills that need adjusting, i disagree that theres more then a few players who really abused exploits to hit that point they are * above and beyond * the average joe.
The curve at 120 is real in exp. I think you semi exaggerate the dominence though, as the other guy kinda explains. Im adv level 80 something, and ive killed guys significantly past me.

That being said, there IS a group of peple whove abused a broken system to get so far beyond that its gross.
And i accept that.

Way i see it, is that those people will either fade away, or become a non factor the more ans more the game comes a long. Each day new bugs are fixed and adjusted to make sure new players ( the real market ) have a steady progression curve. I think when you ignore whas in the game RIGHT NOW, as the way a lot of these players leveld like that are gone, its not nearly that bad? And the majority of players will be in the near same area.

I think the average joes, are over shadowed by the bs that happend with piss poor releasing and obvious and non punished abuse. But i also think this issue fades as they comtinue building ans the player base grows.

 

And id reply to weins about how hes not a dev, that its not really what hes been saying, and that he has no idea what pvp needs or is, but he has me on ignore for pointing out 2+2 doesnt = 17 just because he says so.

 

what you are asking for is a system where 50 hours of play in swords would be the same as 5000 hours of play in swords - That have said they will not impose a cap but will work on a soft cap.

And as a result the Soft capo Is the answer they are sticking with but there have already been things broken and abuses which have resulted in some players' way off the end of the curve.

And any new payers will most likely never be able to catch them

Also they way the system is set up now a Power Gamer will always have and advantage over a normal player.

If they change it, they will lose the power gamers since they play style would be worth nothing and well ???

SO my point is still a perfect explanation and is the one that is holding as how the game is in it current form and will remain for a while. Why because it is the game they sold - Storyy Line with MMO or SP capabilities.

The ONLY way to get what this thread hints at is a change in the basics of the game.