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Overland Map Changes

Discussion in 'Release 5 Feedback' started by Browncoat Jayson, Apr 23, 2014.

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  1. Margard

    Margard Avatar

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    Having a dev created poll is a bad idea - precisely because - although we are a represent varying views that they should consider - we are by no means a representative majority

    We also have a unique - player base and a more unique forum participants - and we have to include the possible "ghost" accounts ... so all feedback has to be taken with care and caution

    That is why I think it would be a shitstorm - also - in the development process - there is always an entity that has final word - they may "hear concerns" and "weigh them" but this does not mean that they have to act on them ... regardless of public reaction to their work - I assume they have a vision and it is prudent in most projects to see it to fruition

    -

    In terms of "public reception" we have to consider that this game is already looking to appeal to a "specific" gamer and build from that by "winning" possibly younger audiences

    This game will never win over - the "twitch" crowd - but it will appeal to any person - young or old - that are looking for a more "insightful" gaming experience

    The way you win people over / when you do compete with the "big boys" is by being unique and iconic world - you have to create a "brand" - a stylistic "look" that yells > THIS IS SOTA when you see it. I think that this is what the dev team should/is striving for ...

    the jury is still out - if they can pull it off BUT until I see that they are not making positive strides - I'll be supportive and try to provide as much constructive criticism as I can - and look for examples to "add value" to whatever design choices they are making

    I'm not a fanboy - but I do know a little about project management / just not in the gaming world / so I try to be as positive as I can EVEN though I disagree/don't understand some of their design choices - but I'm also working from a place of ignorance - but I have enough experiential knowledge to "guess" at potential reasons and in my head try solutions ... its what I love to do - solve problems

    In terms of what MMO's - They don't have a story! We are a story driven RPG - and I hope the dev's never lose sight of that - this is their ace in the hole - nobody can touch them on this - again they have the talent - but does it come through? I sure as hell hope so

    Look at ESO - for all its strengths it has failed at the "core" of what grew that franchise - the "intimate experience connection one got with the world"

    I believe that it can be done with the instance system - and with the overland map - but as this thread proves - there are a multitude of "how" you get there .... here's hoping the dev's are on the right path

    as far as the map goes - having a "mini game" on the overland map would make this game better - there is no doubt in my mind about -

    Were I think we diverge in opinion is the "graphic intense approach" to your "vision" of the overland map ... you've shown RTS game maps by in large - so its no wonder that they look good - SoTA is actually trying to do a hell of a lot more than a RTS and has to split up its resources and allocate personnel time differently I imagine so as it has been mentioned ... its probably not a "fair" comparison

    I also disagree with the "exploration" argument IF (please mind the if) there is no "old school rpg" functionality - such as camping / day night cycle ... etc etc ... in the absence of this ... what you are asking for is expensive eye candy - AGAIN - I like the eye candy you are presenting (specially the last one) but not at the expense of building a "more complete game"

    That is to say - that if the paper approach - in the long run will stand the "test of time" and is less resource intensive - for "in game play" when the game is live - and for less money than a 3d model approach ... that works for me

    In large part because for every old school gamer that wants - rts - like graphics - there is probably equal amount of folks that will like the paper approach (just opinion / hunch) AND as much as some of you don't like the paper map - it is not a game breaker ... nobody will admit this because we are all trying to put our best "I dislike this face" and will never ever ever like it ... but my money is that you will still play the game because

    SoTA will provide the gaming experience you are most looking for - even - with any faults that arise in the development and deployment process ...

    I'm a little tired / hopefully I make sense ... but in all seriousness - would I like SoTA to look like so of the RTS games - hell yeah - I would be lying if I said otherwise

    BUT

    I equally think that the paper approach can be as equally gratifying BUT it is a risky move / ballsy (and I like it!)

    AND

    I think that they need to take more care in making look more "truer to life" (with the quirky / unique nature / that the moving pieces will bring) ... and the first step to that is providing a different representation of towns and trees

    @Lord_Darkmoon sometimes you make a "right" where everyone else has made a "left" ... "Risk vs Reward" with consequences
     
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  2. Telavar

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    The two-scale map system wasn't abandoned without reason from Ultima 6 on... it was a major hinderance if you want to create a believable, immersive world. As simple as that. I don't think this general design rule has changed over the last 25 years... it may work if it were really just the same screen in different scales - but moving the player around on a map to the points of interest? That's about as far from even old school Ultimaesque gameplay as it can get - ain't gonna work.
     
  3. Lord_Darkmoon

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  4. Ceal Astra

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    I'm hoping external decorations on buildings will help the sense of "oops, I've already looked down this street" in future, but a map, even a super basic roads-buildings-landmarks from overhead with no labels would help my sense of orientation.
     
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  5. DNA Cowboy

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    I plan on writing a series of Roland Of Yew's Travels Through New Brittania books with full scale maps; however they will take considerable time to complete.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Bow Vale

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    Tired or not, great post Margard :)
     
  7. Fox Cunning

    Fox Cunning Localization Team

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    I see they've put some effort on the map, but I'd really rather explore the overland than move a flag around a paper and then teleport at the speed of light.
     
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  8. Sir Cabirus

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    I like your post also Margard. I'm from Germany and my writing ability in English is very limitied. This is the reason why my positings are so compact. But with better writing ability I would write my opinion about the map like you have done.

    Different opinions are ok, many ideas can cross-fertilize and move a thing in the right direction. But the discussion about this topic gets noticeably harsher - and sometimes childish. Very sad!
     
  9. Margard

    Margard Avatar

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    There is still valuable information in the "harshness" but it does become a little harder to stomach when its repeated throughout multiple threads with no "progress" in the discussion

    American forums can be extremely disparaging - ours is not that bad - you should try looking at some of the forum posts on steam ... 10x worse

    By in large even the harsh criticism on this site have not gone completely nuclear - with of course the exception being the PvP discussion :p

    I was not born in the US - English is my second language - one of my biggest weakness in my professional life has been my writing - practice makes perfect ... you should post more :D
     
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  10. rune_74

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    There is nothing worse then saying you don't like something without some form of critique and explanation.
     
  11. Senash Kasigal

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    So far, i like the scenes, but i think there are at least three scenes missing.
    Swamp, mountains and beach.
    At SO is forest now, but on the map is swamp or Palms.
    Hope they are coming with R6. :)
    2 crashes during mapping. Not bad.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Margard

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    Nice map - great color coding scheme
     
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  13. Nikko

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    I like your work on that. Pretty detailed.

    One thing that I am really hoping changes at SOME point down the line is the fact that the hexes, once inside one, only have one or two ways OUT. I hate that you have these artificial barriers everywhere to keep you in the hex. You really should be able to exit a hex anywhere there is an edge. The current scheme of having the tunnel vision thing happen is wonderful, because it gives us warning that we're going to leave the hex if we keep on going that way. So.... we should be able to exit a hex anywhere we want (barring a REALISTIC reason like the occasional cliff, mountain face, building, etc blocking the path).
     
  14. Sir Cabirus

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    Thank your for the map. Great work.
     
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  15. Sir_Hemlock

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    I also think there 'exits' to hexes should be marked in an obvious way, perhaps a distinct arch or marking (no neon illumination though for the love of virtue lol). Scrambling through the darkness for the exit with a torch that lights only my character is a pain.

    Love the map work. I also wondered about those things.
     
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  16. abovenyquist

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    Indeed, right now it is very hard to "place" yourself mentally in the overall space, and see how the spaces are connected.

    This could be an area of "low hanging fruit" for the scene designers: place repeated landmarks, like towers or something, that can be seen from far away, and replicate them in adjacent scenes. When Unity loads a new scene, to Unity, it will be a different tower instance, but to the player it will seem like the same thing; a tower you can stand next to in one scene becomes a tower you see a bit further off in another scene.

    Any additional visual/audio/smell/touch/taste/whatever clues they can give to help orient players would go a long way to remove the "I've run down this road too many times already, am I going in circles?" effect.
     
  17. redfish

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    @Senash,

    There are a lot of potential scenes missing. For example, some water tiles might have beaches, others might be rocky, and others might have cliffs. Some grassy areas might have wildflower meadows, or heathland, or some other type of terrain. Hills can be rocky or fertile and full of plant life.

    See this thread https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...s/variety-suggestions-for-future-scenes.9959/

    Maybe this is something the community can help the devs with in scene jams.
     
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  18. mike11

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    [​IMG]

    vs

    [​IMG]There seems to be a really large difference in the density of the hex size.. I'm not sure I can describe what I'm thinking that well, but I think the U4 density and dispersion of the world seems better.

    Hope that makes sense!
     
  19. Razimus

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    Good job on the map
     
  20. Valice Belgraham

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    It would have worked just fine with the original 3d world map. Everyone knew back when the KS campaign was going on that the toss up between mono scale vs. dual scale was leaned towards dual scale for the purpose of being able to swap scenes out on the fly, and keep full risk vs. care bear game play styles all in the same world/economy. The compromise to this dual scale world (Just go read the forms on how badly everyone wanted mono scale.) was to have an explorable 3d world map because so many players of UO enjoyed the travel from city to city despite the fact you could recall/moongate to a place if you didn't want to spend the time physically traveling.

    That's because often times you would discover some totally unique obscure area that you would have never known about if you hadn't taken the time to go off the beaten path. The graphical reason why RG didn't want to go mono scale with SotA was because it takes forever to place trees and shrubs in a natural format for miles upon miles just to have a few special ruins/shrines placed throughout the entire world.

    You can't go off the beaten path and explore a cloth world map where most visually representations all look the same.
     
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