The Oracle Paradox

No I'm not. Not for this "game".

I'm saying that the game should explain why the default setting is not PVP in a way that makes sense for the story. The game should give players the ability to turn off pvp from the beginning, and the game should have "reasons" why there are settings one way or the other and the choices players make one way or the other should matter.

PVP is more risk, period. PVE is not very risky at all, it's essentially a chat room. So there should be very clear consequences stated during character creation that explain this, and make the Oracle a more meaningful tool that integrates the world and the "game mechanics" from the very beginning.

Instead, we just have an Oracle that protects players and if you want that protection turned off because you like pvp then ok you can do that. Horrible story and a missed opportunity to make all these choices matter a heck of a lot more than they do. The problem (as I see it) is that people that don't like pvp don't want to be called out for taking less risk. They want to be heroes of the highest order without dealing with the highest risk. And unfortunately the developers are enabling that while at the same time not even making a believable storyline that supports that.

I assume that PVP is not a part of the calculation that the Oracle is making, and therefore it is not interested if you have a flag on or off.

Because the actions of the Oracle suggest that's the case. There's no evidence that shows PVP is considered at all in the calculation of Virtue.

 

Here's a problem I am having in my experience with the Oracle. The Oracle asks me if I am on the Path of Love. I answer "No I am not" because:

• The people of the Hidden Vale have been reduced to being tax evaders, being imprisoned, resorting to banditry. I have done nothing to help these people. In fact, there's no path to doing so.
• My 'act of Love' is giving a coin to a beggar; not helping a beggar in some substantive way. I'm using the beggar to spam the Love counter, so the Oracle pays up.
  
• I haven't really followed through on the Love Virtue Quest.

The Oracle, however, begs to differ and stiffed me out of my gold which may or may not have been paid for Honesty I displayed if I was asked if I was on the Path of Truth.

There are things wrong with the elemental forms of Virtue being displayed or perhaps my definitions and values are different. For example, I don't think it's particularly courageous to deal with problems with violence. I hold Courage to be acts that one undertakes to better oneself or for the good of all involved. Diplomacy, for example, is a courageous means to solving disputes in my opinion. Killing for the sake of killing or for one's own personal gain is cowardice, and this game is replete with opportunities for doing just that; indeed all my encounters outside of safe zones is nothing but that, and it's a bit disappointing. I'm really hoping for more sophistication, and I hope there's something to this I just haven't discovered and appreciated rather than just the stuff I can game.

 

When we look close enough we can see the resemblance of our Oracle. The author Jean-Claude Forest had other works like the Black Arrow. I find it very interesting that the Black Arrow is mentioned also in Lord of the Rings, yet also leads to the works of Robert Louis Stevenson writer of the novel "The Black Arrow" as well as other works including Doctor Jeckel and Mr. Hide. O.K. Garriott while working at Stanford in 1957 recording fluctuations in the Sputnik satellite's radio strength then added needed data through his study of spinning modulation, which supported the rotational science used in the 1971 Prospero satellite which was launched by a Black Arrow rocket. And, as well all know, O.K. Garriott went on to have a son named Richard who would go on to creating his life around The Lord of the Rings, The Black Arrow novel as well as the duality of Dr. Jeckel and Mr. Hide, and create an Oracle which looks just like Barberella ...


Don't be a bunch of control freaks, see what you see and react to it...
Our Oracle is what it is and is going to become much more than just a pretty Barberella face ...
~Time Lord~

 

The only few things I had time to do these last few days is to buy/sell things from some vendors and craft a few things as well as plant some seeds, water them etc. Oracle went from Yes to No a few times. And I am on path of courage. If planting seeds determines either I am courageous or not, maybe it's time to vote for a new oracle...

 

Hey, you gotta start somewhere!

 

My thoughts - contains a bit of info some might not know, so .. you know .. spoiler alert!

If you've read The Sword of Midras, no need to worry.

If not, GO GET IT NOW!

Spoiler

The Oracle was designed to research the pre-Cataclysm fragments and find a solution to regain the lost knowledge, including the identity and nature of the legendary Avatars. It seems to me that her conclusion was to bring back the Avatars by bringing the lunar rifts back online. I assert that SHE brought us here .. looking forward to finding out more about Arabella though. Anyway, now that we are here, she studies us to find out more about us and to see if we can right the troubles with the world.

I wonder though, now that the Obsidians are gone, what exactly IS the problem to be sorted? Bring peace to the land? Get the Titans home? Hmm..

 

Good point. We'll add a note about this in the Isle of Storms Oracle conversation.

The Oracle's involvement in PvP is not accidental and it is not solely due to metagaming or maintaining a PvP switch.

1. A Wizard Did It(tm)
2. The Oracle doesn't care about the answer. It might care about you knowing the answer.
3. As many have correctly surmised, the test the Oracle gives is an open-book test. You are free to ask the Oracle what it thinks your status is in each virtue before taking the test. This also is not accidental. The fact that you are not explicitly instructed to do this is also not accidental.

You assume the Oracle is supposed to be less suspicious, less cryptic and more useful.

1. This will be established, especially in the final stage of the plot when the Oracle takes center stage.
2. That question is, not to put too fine a point on it, the entire point of the game.
3. Why wouldn't you? Why should you? There are definite reasons to go in either direction.

One of the more interesting games that's come along in a while is called Spec Ops: The Line. The game has many decision points but one of the primary ones is one where you, the player, have to commit an atrocity to continue the game. There is no choice here - you literally have to commit this atrocity (and it is one, the game very graphically shows you the impact of your action shortly thereafter) to continue.

Except there is a choice - you can put the controller down and not play any more. Which makes sense, because the core point this game was making (which becomes more and more explicit near the end as the game breaks the fourth wall, with taunting loading screen notes and such) was that the game's true villain was in fact you, the player, the human behind the controller, because you are the one being entertained by this.

It's a very gutsy concept, and it didn't really work that well, and by no means are we trying to make a similar point here - but at the same time ignoring the Oracle - the plot of the game - and making your own path is absolutely a valid choice. You're deciding the story you are telling is more important than ours. That's not necessarily a wrong choice. I would hope you wouldn't, but it's not concretely *wrong*.

 

(My best contribution to this game, hands down.)

 

You know, when I read posts and responses like this, It get me so intrigued to play Shroud of the Avatar's STORY, and experience what you all have come up with because it seems like it could be really amazing!

And now for the BUT...

I have tried... OH have I tried many, many times to get this SAME feeling IN-GAME as I do when I hear You, Richard or Tracy talk about it.

Somewhere between your minds, the current technology and that (very sorry) gosh awful interface to communicate to NPC's, it all just plainly breaks down. Its just a mush of words and the struggle to get through the technology is hindering enjoyment of play. You ever hear the saying that mind can absorb only as much as the "behind" can stand (from sitting in an uncomfortable chair)? Well that is what happens to me when I try to play and follow the story in its current form and UI.

I *know* the game is a WIP, and I *know* that changing things regarding this is on the horizon. All I ask is, PLEASE do not be so caught up in the technology and desire to break away from current gaming trends that you lose the ability to get your story told to us, the players, as you see it in your minds.

Go the extra mile and make the difference. It seems like it can be so wonderful if presented clearly and cleanly, which right now, it is not. Right now it seems like we can only experience it correctly *IF* we think like YOU, and Ask Like YOU and Respond like YOU. I have seen your responses to people on how it *clearly* states this or that. Well, really it doesn't, and perhaps it comes from the frustration of the system itself and hunting down the correct words to use, or click on. What did I click on? What Didn't I click on? Have I even talked to this person before? There has to be a medium ground somewhere between text parser and log books, to pulling you by your nose through the game. I think it needs to be a little more well organized then what it is and I know you guys can find that place!

I think the parsing system is amazing, but getting it to and from the player and organized in a usable fashion is where, IMO it breaks down.

It is good to an extent, but I hope that when this comes to the final GUI, it plays out much better then it does now so we can all experience and play the story how you guys see it!

Thanks for listening!

 

This.

 

In a single player game, especially one on rails, I am willing to play the character however the story intends. In a sandbox rpg with mmo aspects, my choices become much more personal.
Lord British asked that we play our avatars as though they were true representions of ourselves. I have found no reason to visit the Oracle again. Not even the bribe money will get me there.
I will continue to uphold the virtues as these are in accord with my personal values.

Please give us a compelling reason to visit the Oracle even if we are not concerned with 'her' judgement of us. I do not want to ignore the plot of the game but I also don't want to subject myself to the Oracle's appraisal of my appraisal of myself.

 

That's very interesting, I have yet to see evidence of this however, so I'll keep my eyes open.

I'm glad to see this is by design then.

(Why I should care about Virtue in general?)

I think this needs a lot of work then. The delivery method (the Oracle) may prevent some (me) from experiencing the entire point of the game.

I don't say this to be difficult. You have to understand that if you're approaching me with a suspicious machine that offers little or no evidence of worthiness until the end of the game and on top of that I'm supposed to value the outcome of the game (as a player)...

This is a very deep subject that we're talking about here, and I think the best way I can explain it from my point of view is by pointing you in the following direction. Please go to youtube and look up "Bill Burr explains heaven". He's my favorite comedian but I won't post the video here because it may be considered offensive to some people (it's pretty tame though really). I really hope you watch this short (3 minute) video though because it actually does a great job summing up the whole "judgement" concept. Which philosophically I think you guys should consider more.

Because that's what we're talking about here. We're talking about being judged, and really we're talking about being judged by Richard when we get right down to it. And as much as I like Richard and think he seems like a great guy, I'm not sure I can be expected to value his judgement over my own. You guys really have to sell that to me (in-game) and so far (respectfully) you're doing a horrible job. As Bill Burr would say "it doesn't make any sense".

I agree that's really interesting. I can see why it wouldn't be a crowd pleaser.

I have always assumed that we'd eventually have choices to make where there was not an optimal outcome. For example, that you could save one person (perhaps someone close to you) or multiple people, as researchers have tested. But even this I'm not sure can be judged well. Human nature says we're inclined to save those we know and care about. Are we guilty of being human in an experiment like that? Who can judge? Certainly not other humans...(so why not a machine!)

I plan to finish all the quests and I realize that means I'll have to interact with the Oracle. But I'm doing this because my character wants to learn more about the Oracle (and any other source of power in the world), there is no other reason. Also because I'm an Avatar and immortal I know that I have nothing to fear from the Oracle. I can't be killed, I can't be harmed. That lack of primal fear will certainly skew the results of any virtue test. As it's that fear of survival that often pushes humans to achieve great things or become monsters.

It's hard for me to imagine getting to the end of the three quests and not thinking..."Ok, you said my virtue number is X. Who cares?"

This gets back into that deep subject matter again, which is good, I like that. Here's what I tell my kids. "You have to be able to look at yourself in the mirror because that's really all you have. When there are bad times in life, and there will be bad times, you're going to feel alone and all you're going to have is that person that you've made yourself through your actions. Life is filled with regret and you don't always make the right choices, you're not always going to do the right thing. But whatever you do you have to be ok with the person in the mirror. If you're not ok with that person, then you're lost. So when you make decisions in life, you have to think about how you'll feel about it tomorrow or next year or 30 years from now. Because you'll be living with them, and you want to live with as little regret as possible." There's no Oracle in that conversation, there's no religion, and no rule book. There's just trying to be the best person you can be and understanding that no one else has the secret formula to what that is. If they did, well then this world would be much better place to live.

In that regard I do think the story I'm telling is more important than the one you're telling. (at least to me) I'm the star of my story, I don't know who the star of your story is...Richard? What I would hope is that you look for ways to capture each player's story and make them the star. I don't feel you're doing that at the moment. The Oracle doesn't know I know my own town. The Oracle doesn't know that I live in an area that doesn't use it's protection. The Oracle doesn't know what's in my heart. Only I know that. So there really needs to be a way to get "me" to believe the Oracle knows me and understands me and is not just looking at a conversion chart. And I'm not sure exactly how that would be done, but I'm thinking it would probably start with helping me achieve my goals and not sending me on a path to achieve its goals.

 

Sounds fascinating!

But you are aiming for a narrative at least as compelling and engaging? Yes?

I wouldn't necessarily assume that such a player is making a value comparison between "your story" and "their story" as to which one is more "important" but rather it is more likely taking advantage of the incredible opportunity to "play a vital part in weaving their own story into the immersive world and lore surrounding them." IMO- the "important" part is that players are engaged around "ethical decision-making" which includes the ability to agree or disagree with what the Oracle has determined Virtue to be.

As @Kambrius notes- what constitutes "Courage" may differ from person to person. Same goes for the other Virtues. And let's not even get into what happened to all the other Virtues, or even why Humility is no longer considered the "root of all Virtues" or why we "these" 8 Virtues rather than "those" 8 Virtues were used in the Ultima series in the first place. (Remember, the Gargoyles had an alternate system.)

Please correct me if I am wrong, but the notion that there is somehow a statement being made by LB/Port that the Oracle's perception of what is (or isn't) Virtuous is identical to the way LB/Port perceives it, would be quite incorrect.

Therefore, the fact that the Oracle is known to be "judgmental in a very particular way" should be a clear hint that her role in the narrative is intentionally meant to be ambiguous, cryptic, not necessarily "useful", and perhaps even outright divisive.

Why not?

 

Agreed. I'm more than happy to "become the Avatar" in Offline Mode, assuming I find a compelling reason to play that mode.

As for Online Mode... I'm not exactly sure what they have in store, but it seems fairly obvious to me that there cannot be 10,000 full-fledged "Avatars" running around Novia saving the day... something to ponder...

The fact that there is PvP of any kind hints at the fact that the narrative cannot simply pretend that all the players become the "one true" Avatar.

Currently- Jaan isn't even an Outlander. She's Novian... or at least she believes she is. I've built in the ability to pivot around this into her lore depending upon what actually happens as the narrative unfolds.

Precisely. Which is also what I perceive most everybody in this thread saying as well.

I would only add that I am assuming LB/Port understand this, and are in no way attempting to "dictate to us" what our ethical choices "should" be.

 

Sorry to jump in on this bit of the thread, but something the Oracle always says has me thinking that our choices may lead to a situation where some avatars may lose her protection altogether. The Oracle says:

"[10/7/2016 4:59:11 PM] The Oracle: (to you) You may have already heard of the Prophecy about the arrival of Otherworlders such as yourself. Due to the potential impact in the world that they represent, I have provided you all some semblance of protection, which blocks you from attacking one another until your fates are known. However, if you are brave if not foolhardy, I can remove those protections. Just ask me to remove protection if you desire that I do this."

"which blocks you from attacking one another until your fates are known"

Our fates will be determined by our choices... our choices are shaping our virtue standing in the eyes of the Oracle. Something I already love about the virtue system is that it doesn't require you to monitor the game. All you have to do is be yourself or be the character you've created for the game - the virtue system handles the rest.

I've experienced some of the influence the Oracle has over PVP, specifically the act of PVP and how virtue is graded. I don't know if it (the Oracle) watches to see who draws first blood, but it wouldn't surprise me if he/she/it did.

 

Well that is itself a judgment, which also I am not sure is true.

That sounds like a great philosophy, and also congruent with what I perceive Richard's philosophy to be. Although I do not really know what it is- I can only surmise through his games and what little I've seen of him speak. It's entirely possible that neither of us have a particularly accurate idea of what his personal philosophy is.

Yes, but again I really, really doubt that he believes in a rigid sense of "right and wrong" with rulebooks and secret formulas. I'm more inclined to believe that he feels more closely to the way you do. But again, I don't really know.

Unless she does.

Precisely. The Oracle can only judge based upon actions, and not intent. So therefore, I think you have found your answer as to her "true" nature... which is actually and literally a computer program.

The question you seem to be asking is whether or not the RG/Port is forwarding the Oracle as their idea of how they believe ethical actions "should" be evaluated. In my opinion, she represents more of a symbol of what they perceive it NOT to be, while at the same time being able to create another set of game mechanics around "Virtue Levels" and all of that.

I just don't see any of them as being particularly "judgy" people.

What you are asking- I don't think it can be done, but I would also challenge the idea that it "needs" to be done in order for you to enjoy playing this game.

If, as you say, your character visits the Oracle from time to time precisely because he is suspicious of her and wants to keep tabs on her... great! Cheers to you... we should talk...

 

More complex choices (if tracked) will result in more relevance and less "guessable" values to the virtues system. When compared with Ultima's eight virtues, the 3 principles offer much less variation .. on the surface. In actuality, the 3 principles interact to create the eight virtues. IP rules keep Port from using too similar a nomenclature to Ultima, but that doesn't mean that the eight virtues can't exist behind the scenes. I take the view that this interplay is occurring whether or not a game system exists to track it, but I would like to see one nonetheless.

As I mentioned in another post, there are some great opportunities to act on the virtues. The example I used previously is about fauns & satyrs. We can slay the satyrs and avoid slaying the fauns, but there doesn't seem to be a way to communicate this to them, or free them from their bondage, at least where I'm at. All you can do is not use AOE, and grin and bear it through the confusion spells. Whether the Oracle is cognizant of this choice, I am not sure. I'd like to see some options for healing "enemies" - befriending some - when I come across elves and kobolds fighting, maybe I can impact the kobolds by defeating the elves and then staying my hand when it comes to them. Again, some non-lethal combat options would come in handy. Maybe the aforementioned fauns could be escorted to Jaanaford, or invited to live in a player's home or POT. Maybe we could help to shelter refugees from the war zones, or adopt a lost child. Will we be able to offer food and drink to a beggar, instead of just gold?

If the Oracle monitors PVP, does she monitor other actions between players? What of those giving their land over for public gardens and crafting stations? Can a wealthy player make a donation to the less fortunate Avatars? How would this be tracked, how could it be gamed? The introspective nature of the Oracle's questioning steers us away from doing good acts for a "return on investment".

What's the point of the virtues? Are we trying to attain perfection of them, as in Ultima IV? Are we simply exploring ideas in a world viewed primarily thru the lens of the Principles? What do we "get" for following them? Perhaps The Sword of Midras holds some answers - will there be items like the "blade of the Avatar" that unlocks power as you attain certain levels in the virtue? I certainly hope so There's also Pride to consider, and its interactions with the Virtues.

Likewise, will the anti-virtues come into play? Falsehood, Hatred and Cowardice were once embodied in the Pre-Cataclysm days as three creepy dudes (see below). There may be powers available to those with a LACK of adherence to virtue. In SotA, studying Death or Chaos magic doesn't make you evil, but using it in certain ways might.

Complexity in questing and virtue stats must be implemented cautiously, as with crafting, magic, and other systems - if something doesn't work properly, it will trickle all the way down. I think we'd all rather fix 3 items than 300. I suspect the devs have some plans to make the virtues and related quests both more complicated and more rewarding. Lum's response to this thread seems to confirm at least some of those suspicions. I hope they are able to design a robust system of tracking and interaction (both PVE and PVP) that will incentivize choosing a path for or against Virtue, and help bring real seriousness to our decisions.

 

I have apparently mistyped my name to every NPC I have ever spoken to by not using a capital letter in it, and have negative truth. What am I supposed to do now? When I tell the oracle I think of myself as truthful it doesnt give me the 500.

So now not only does the game call me a liar, and I assume I will miss truth quests due to it, now I am also financially even worse off than everyone else after the new gold increase.

I would really prefer the gold was removed or given to everyone for attendance. Having to lie to the oracle to earn my truth reward is nuts.

This economy boost that is supposedly helping me financially is going to everyone but me and I am worse off for it. I was actually doing well financially I thought, I play a lot and made a fair amount for my time, but now other players can just log on, fake a reply to the oracle and get what I have to spend time earning.
Not trying to be rude, but this is the worst financial incentive I have ever been given, I seem to be much worse off now because of it.

 

I suspect the Oracle has an ulterior motive and is trying to guide every avatar willing to listen. Do we each get the same guidance? Indeed, while the Virtues are often cited, we've seen nothing of them. We are dealing in Principles, the combinations of which the Virtues are made. A mere intellectual property issue or the building blocks of future story?

This is part one of a story, and like all part ones it must spend time laying groundwork. Equating the Oracle's ideas of "virtue" to Richard Garriott's ignores the freedom we generally grant to authors - that what they write is not necessarily what they believe.